System edited: Updated speakers... as the Meadowlark Blue Heron 2's have been sold as stated a bit ago in the thread, and the Martin Logan Summits have been added to the virtual system. I will try to get around to taking and placing some updated photos on the system thread soon... other than the remodelling pics.

audiofankj March 11, 2006 04:17

Kirk, would you now characterize yourself as a music enthusiast, audiophile or general contractor? The photos that you, Albert and Mike have shared with the rest of us are very instructive as well as inspiring. So, despite the trials of retrofitting I truly envy your space and I'm sure you'll dial in those ML's. Great work!

islandear March 06, 2006 00:58

Kirk, I don't believe I have heard Elektraglide wires. I may very well have. I have a neighbor who changes PCs more often than my cat changes her mind.

I guess I don't have to ask whether your room has climate control. MLs I've heard get fat with humidity.

muralman1 March 05, 2006 06:49

Vince,

Yep. That about sums it up. At this time I think there is a bit under 100 hours on the Martin Logan Summits. There is definately more bass in the room. I have just set up the speakers according to my room dimensions and the Cardas speaker setup for dipolar speakers. I figured I would let them get a good couple of hundred hours on them first prior to tweaking placement and bass adjustments. The Summits have +/- 10 db adjustments at 25 Hz and at 50 Hz, in which they state it will in general affect a 10 Hz sweep at those areas. So, all in all the wall reinforcement with the adjustments on the bass should overcome the room anomalies. (keeping fingers crossed)

I am also trying the Electraglide Epiphany X on the speakers and will most likely try them on other components as well to get an idea how they compare to the Epiphany's.

audiofankj March 05, 2006 03:37

oh...... God

muralman1 March 03, 2006 11:52

System edited: Pictures added of the room renovation described in above response to system thread...

audiofankj March 03, 2006 05:54

(WARNING - LONG READ)

Wow, sorry for the much prolonged delay on the system thread responses and update.

I will admit to putting this off more than once or twice, as this update will most likely consume a couple of hours of typing!

Ken - You are more than welcome to come over anytime! Will have the espresso ready and the tubes glowing! As you know, we will hopefully get together in a week or so and see what your impressions are post construction & with the new babies.

Gstringer - Well, the short story is the long story that I will post below. I too was dissapointed to see them go. I will explain below in detail.

Art - Thanks for the compliments on the room. It still looks good, but has had some "touch up" work performed to it! I have just recently installed two Epiphany X power cords that are breaking in on the new "babies"... more info below.

The good, the bad, the ugly:

The good: new house, new dedicated listening room.
The bad: new house, new dedicated listening room.
The ugly: new house, new dedicated listening room.

What am I talking about? Ok... where to begin. Shortly after a couple of months in the new home (as much time was not available to spend listening as I was marking items off the "honey do" list) I became aware of what I called "missing notes." Particularly this was noticable on track nine of Patricia Barber's Modern Cool album. When the stand up bass plucked the lowest two notes, they were almost inaudible. This caused great consternation. This became the "focus"... why are these notes sounding quiet?

The next few days turned into weeks with the Rives Audio test cd, and not one, not two, yes THREE different SPL meters from Rat Shack to ensure I was getting the proper readings. Did I mention speakers were moved from what was the "sweet spot" from 2 feet from the back wall to almost 8 feet into the room? Also moved from 18 inches from the side wall to almost 5 feet out from the side wall. All positions, some better, some worse came up with the same evidence.

The frequency range from 30-42 Hz was down 18-22 dB !!! 20 Hz was down 4 dB, 25 Hz was down 3 dB... 53 Hz was up 5 dB. Did we miss that last part? 18-22 dB DOWN at 30-42 Hz!

Ok, now came the investigation as to WHAT was casing this. To back track just a bit, when we had the home built, I requested certain specifications, as the rooms I-joists to be on 16" centers rather than 19". The builder one upped my request and put the I-joists on 12" centers. This has been the case with most respects throughout the building process. So... when it came time to drywall the room and such, I asked for double drywall and a very reinforced wall, he suggested he let his "sound guys" do the room. He explained they treat "music rooms" (pianos & such) and home theaters all the time. This is where the drywall furring strips and such came into the picture. There was also a double stagger stud wall on the wall behind the speakers, in which the master bedroom headboard is on the other side.

Oh almost forgot! A few weeks was also spent with a PAIR of Onix Rocket UFW-12 subwoofers... These were corner loaded 9" out from each wall as they had a parametric EQ to help "augment" the missing bass area. I was able to get that area of frequency up substantially, almost even. However, listening was confirmed with friends as well, they just did not integrate well with the Meadowlark Blue Heron 2's.

So, it was concluded it was the double stagger stud wall behind the speakers (that was blown with insulation, tight, between all three "walls/studs") that was acting as an enormous bass absobsion trap... tuned to those frequencies.

Wondered what I meant by the good, the bad, and the ugly above? New house, new dedicated listening room. Did I mention that? I could not write enough about how adamant my better half was against me doing anything to "modify" the rear wall. Weeks of badgering went by. "Nothing is going to change with the room!" continued to be the response. The lack of lower stand up bass notes became more and more annoying once it becomes a focus.

It was more of a reality than a threat to the wife. I was determined I was going to sell the entire system if I couldn't get it to sound as it should. I conceded it won't necessarily be perfect, however it shouldn't have a glaring problem either. We had already chosen the new Sony 60" Grand WEGA SXRD rear projection that looks stunning. I had a friend lined up to help me go load it into the truck the next day. I couldn't sleep that night.

Next morning I called my buddy and told him I am not getting the TV. All I could think about is how it took SO many years, trials, and such to get it to this point. I have to make it work.

Did I mention the good, the bad, and the ugly? Heh. Ok - so there are NO options to fix/modify/whatever to the room. It is not the adding of bass traps, it needs more bass. Thus it came down to a decision to sell my speakers and buy a speaker on the market that has some type of bass adjustment. Which will hopefully better integrate within the listening room. That was somewhat agreeable to the wife. Reluctantly, very, very reluctantly the Meadowlark BH2's went up for sale.

An order was placed for my new set of speakers: Martin Logan Summits. Days went by as buyers/sellers remorse intensified. Calls and emails were made to fellow audiophiles on both the room and the new speakers. A fellow audiogon member, Albert Porter - whom is always a wealth of honest knowledge and opinion, made the obvious extremely clear to me. I have to fix the source of the problem. The new speakers or any new speaker may or may not sound better, however the problem still exists, and will continue to pose problems. Thank you Albert, for turning on the light in my head. SO - coupled with the "buyers/sellers" remorse, I was now trying to stomach the thought of what in my mind I termed as "trying to place a bandaid on a broken bone..."

Calls were made to many people regarding the "fix/solution." Again, Albert was a wealth of knowledge and the "fix/solution" was almost followed per his recommendation without deviation. The plan was to tear down the drywall and the metal resilient channel (furring strips) and to strengthen the wall behind the speakers and corners to reinforce the bass.

A call was placed to our old neighbor, a retired builder whom still does remodeling as a "hobby." He agreed to come over, take a look at what it would entail, and give a quote. He was busy the next few days, however mentioned he could start the work next week.

Festering lightbulb in my head "must fix the broken bone..." and conversations with the wife that, "Dave could come over and start it next week, without much mess, and it won't take long..." Well, to be honest, I must admit I did not get an "ok" or the go ahead. A few days later I mentioned Dave was coming the next week to start, and was reminded not to make a mess of the house, and she didn't agree to it.

Yes, so at this point I am in the dog house. My head is spinning. My beloved speakers are sold. New ones are purchased and on the way - in which case I don't know if they will sound equal let alone better than my old Meadowlarks. Did I mention I am in the dog house? Also the wall is about to get torn down in which I really didn't get "authorization" for from the better half, in which we all realize we will pay dearly for later.

(I will be adding pictures of the process to the system thread) Dave arrives and we take a couple of hours prepping- laying down the blankets, etc. as I had already removed all the audio gear out of the room, and placed it securely in another area of the house. Everything was removed from the built in shelving, and it was tarped over and taped down. Furniture that stayed in the room was moved as far out of the way and also tarped over. The return air vent was also taped over to ensure "the bit" of dust made would not get blown to other rooms in the house.

OK - The beauty of the metal furring strips is they were laid horizontally across the wall spaced every 12 inches apart. Thus we cut the drywall with the jigsaw horizontally in sections above and below the metal furring strips. Did I mention dust? *cough* With steady work from morning to about 5 p.m. about half of the main wall had the drywall and the furring strips removed. There was much to our dismay. The blown insulation was packed so tight between the two stagger stud walls, it was most likely ineffective. The two by fours used for the wall that the metal furring strips were hung on were not "stud grade" according to Dave. You could literally place your hand on the middle of a stud and push on it, back and forth - and I am NOT exaggerating - it would flex back and forth 5 to 6 INCHES left to right. So much for that sturdy wall, eh? Did I mention there was much to our dismay? Along with the insulation being packed overly tight, and the studs being very, very flimsy, there were areas on both sides of the wall in which the two by fours were almost spaced 24 inches apart. YES, two feet! Those few did have cross members, but most did not. Also, the resilient channels, or metal furring strips were not all attached by screw as some were nailed and some were cut... All in all, there was much that could be probable cause to the "bass trap."

With the drywall being removed, we had to remove a good bit of the blown insulation. This resulted in the filling of dozens of lawn/yard sized trash bags...

OK back to the story, Dave departed about 5 p.m. or so with about half of the main wall removed. I continued to cut and remove the drywall to just above the baseboard and remove all of the insulation on the main wall. I was also able to do the corner of the room in which was about the first 6 feet of the side wall.

The next morning, the base board, and trim around the door on the side wall was removed. Then out came the "Saws-All" (not sure how it is spelled) and the two by fours began coming down and out. As a few came down, in went the new and improved studs.

We took two 2x4s and used "Liquid Nails" (subfloor version) and double beaded a 2x4. We then placed another 2x4 against the one with the Liquid Nails and then drove 3" drywall screws through the 2x4s to ensure they are securely joined. The above process comprised our "stud." These new and improved "studs" were spaced on roughly 9" centers, with slight deviation to allow for hanging of the sheets to follow... We then used Liquid Nails and drywall screws to reinforce the cross members, which were randomly spaced to break up resonances. Some had two cross members, some had three.

After this was done, we placed insulation in the studs. This really has no sonic merit for the listening room, however with the master bedroom on the other side, with the headboard to the bed against the shared wall, we figured we could use all of the sound deadening we could get... especially if this did help improve bass reinforcement.

Next came the plywood. Yes... 3/4" tongue & groove plywood. The plywood was also adhered to the studs with Liquid Nails and 3" drywall screws. After all of the plywood was glued and screwed, the liberal application of accoustical caulk to seal any spaces before the drywall layer went on.

Next came the 5/8" thick drywall... layer one. Audio Alloy's "Green Glue" (www.audioalloy.com) which is described as "Green Glue is a liquid, waterborne, viscoelastic damping compound..." this was spread on the first layer of drywall, so it would be "sandwiched" between the first layer of drywall and the plywood. After the drywall was "gooped", we placed it on the plywood and liberally screwed drywall screws into the drywall from the center out, as the instructions recommend.

After the first layer of drywall was glued & screwed, we mudded the joints and allowed them to dry. Slight sanding was performed to ensure there were no high spots.

The second layer of 5/8" drywall was then Green Glued & screwed onto the first layer of drywall. Thus creating a second "sandwich" of the Green Glue.

Mudding and sanding. Mudding and sanding. This commenced for several days.

Finally it was at a point where we felt it was about as good as it could get visually. The baseboards were replaced as well as the trim on the door.

I then painted the drywall with a color matched (close at least) primer. After the primer dried we then mudded a few spots that were noticable and sanded another day or so.

The walls were then painted twice. Putty was filled into the nail holes to reattach the base boards and trim around the door. That was also touch up painted. Wall plates were reinstalled and outlets tested.

All in all, the project took more than expected. Time frame was over three weeks and just under a month I think. Budget estimate went from a few hundred to a final cost of close to fifteen hundred. The result? Well as far as I can tell - priceless. At least for sonics. I have some work to do around the house, and owe my wife a lot for tolerating this in a new house. There was drywall dust everywhere as well.

However, with new speakers that are just beginning to break in... there is much, much more bass than there was before. That is with warnings the speakers will sound bass shy for quite some time when new.

Thus, I just may be looking for some bass absorbsion devices in a few weeks. But for now, it seems that when the new speakers break in, and placement is tweaked, and the SPL meter comes out... there won't be a 18-22 dB anomally in the 30-42 Hz range.

Now I just hope these speakers perform at least equally to the Meadowlark BH2's. I think that is asking a lot.

Thus - this is why the responses have been put off for a bit. I am certain there is some I have left out, however ask away and I can clarify.

audiofankj March 03, 2006 04:46

Let me know if you erver have the chance to try the Epiphany X. It's very nice.

Great looking room, btw. You are one lucky guy!

artg February 07, 2006 21:12

Kirk,
Just saw the post for your Meadowlark speakers. I was dissappointed to see them for sale. Any particular reason? You posted to my new system a few months back and I was pleased that you used Meadowlard considering you are more experienced in this hobby.

I'm in the Atlanta area (Candler Park downtown) and was hoping to see your [new] room and complete system someday.

gstringer February 04, 2006 00:58

Kirk,

I would like to thank you for your gracious hospitality this morning during my visit to you new home and being able to sit front'n center to your awesome set up! and the 3 Cafe' Latte's that kept you running down to the kitchen!! Very nice.

First of all, you have an excellent listening room both asthetically and sonically! I knew from my previous listening at your old place, that your system would benefit from a larger space that would enable the speakers to bloom. I gotta tell ya..I was very impressed with halographic and spacious presentation in the sweet spot. The BH2's just completely dissapeared and threw an enormous stage both in depth and width, without exaggerating the scale of the music IMO. Although that was a wonderful quality in your system, I think that it ranks second to the excellent tonal balance and sheer musicality that the system so deftly portrays!In my mind...that is paramount, and your system is first rate at that!

Like you, I too was amazed at how coherent and seamless the sound was in the near field, concidering the 1st order time alignment of the Meadowlarks...but, It works great!

Im glad that I was able to hear it after the painfully long break in, Im sure it was no fun in the process. I can say at least that from what we heard today, it seems that it was worth the time and wait, as well as putting so much thought into the room design, that has paid off nicely now.

The Vinyl spun on the Nott. was especially sweet.I think we were both in agreement with that :-)

Thanks again for the invite, and again, congratulations on the system and beautiful new home. You should be very pleased and proud!! I must reciprocate the offer for you to spend some time at my humble and modest place to hear the poor guys set up! I gotta get me one of them Krupps Latte machines! Until then, is French roast okay?
///Ken

kehut January 08, 2006 01:58

Larry,

I received the Purist cables about two weeks ago. They have been "breaking in" since then, albeit while I have been contantly shifting the speakers around and such. Merry Christmas & Happy New Year to you and your loved ones!

Howard,

I too am finding them to be very well balanced, as well as competent in all areas. I honestly haven't had any real "critical" listening yet, as I just keep logging a few hours on the cabling here and there.

audiofankj December 20, 2005 04:07

Kirk,
I am using both the Aqueous Anniversary IC's and speaker cables, and find them to be perfectly balanced & extended. I hope you enjoy them as well.

boa2 December 19, 2005 15:26

Kirk,
When do you expect to receive your Purist Audio Design Aqueous 20th Anniversary interconnects and speaker cables?
Happy Holidays!

lak December 19, 2005 11:04

Thanks Howard! I would like to be hopeful this will be a nice Christmas gift for many, many years to come :) Merry Christmas to you and your loved ones!

audiofankj December 19, 2005 05:12

System edited: Cabling change. New room and new cable length requirements prompted sale of previous cables, Synergistic Research Resolution Reference X2. The initial plan was to purchase new SR Res. Ref. X2 in the correct lenghts for the new room. However, after I placed calls to a few people that sell many lines of cable, ie. Cardas, Shunyata, Silversmith, Purist, Nordost, Synergistic Research, AudioQuest, Acoustic Zen, Kimber, MIT, Siltech, etc. to name a few I inquired as to what if anything would be worth considering in the same price range if anything. The new Purist Audio Design was emphatically recommended by a gentleman whom replaced his entire system which was running the Synergistic Research Designers Reference X2 (which was one level above my Res. Ref. X2) with the new Purist Aqueous 20th Anniversary. Thus my initial intent of new SR Res. Ref. X2, ended up with the purchase of the new Purist Audio Design Aqueous 20th Anniversary. There were more inquiries than just one or two, and the response from those whom have heard the new Aqueous made me go in that direction. As of now, I have been toying mainly with speaker setup in the new room and tweaking of speaker placement as the cables have been breaking in. They now have about 300 hours on them, and are sounding very promising. I really don't want to "judge" them until they have a good 500 hours or so on them and they aren't being moved every 20 minutes with new speaker position. I will try to post updates as I get time to listen and post noticable changes... Ridge Street Audio Cable Risers for speaker cables have been removed from the system and are no longer in use.

audiofankj December 19, 2005 04:55

Kirk,
Enjoy your wonderful new room. What a Christmas gift!
Howard

boa2 December 19, 2005 04:34

Hey Ray - :) Thanks - I still have my kidneys! I am still tweaking the speaker placement, but think I really have it down. What has become more apparent is the "sound isolation" we built into the room, seems to be "absorbing" the bass frequencies between 30-40 Hz or so. I am only down a few db at 20 Hz, and few db at 25 Hz, about the same as 53 Hz up... At this time I will be repositioning the speakers in various locations to confirm it is the "blown insulation" in the walls with the drywall furring strips that seems to be causing the lack of bass at those frequencies.

Hello Amperidian - thank you for your kind words. I just now realized I haven't answered your post earlier. I will have to reread your post and respond for you. You are right with your comments about patience. It has been well over 350 hours now of play time into this new room, and an absolute minimum of 9 hours of moving speakers from 1/2 an inch here and there, to 5 feet back and moving back into the room, inches at a time. Same with the side walls. However, at this time, I am quite confident I have foudn the optimal placement for the speakers, however at the same time am becoming almost as confident that the sound insulation the builder worked into the room is also absorbing certain frequencies. I am still going to give it more time, and perhaps send off some measurements to Rives. I may also look into a subwoofer with a parametric EQ to augment the bass in the frequencies the room seems to be absorbing. For the current time, you are right - give it more time, and drink more wine!

audiofankj December 19, 2005 04:10

You're a lucky man Kirk, no need to worry about the room ... let the system settle in for a while before you start changing things around again. If I remember right, you waited 2000 hours to reap the benefits of the Heron's, what's another 300-500? I find that even in a non-perfect room (like the one I have) you can still enjoy the music even if it's not perfect. Rives Audio is very good for room acoustics and I hear they can address any type of room ... but they charge 2 kidneys :), just kidding ... anyways, start saving for future endeavors, there is so much fine wine out there ... and believe me, music sounds infinitely better after a nice bordeaux. Keep us posted.

amperidian December 15, 2005 02:56

Lookin great!I hope you get to keep your kidneys!LOL Good Luck!

raytheprinter November 30, 2005 01:26

Wow - many responses! Thanks. I have been busy trying to get the rest of the house finally in order, to allow for some time to finalize tweaking in the listening room.

Yes, the "look" of the room came out quite pleasing. I will have to post more pictures soon. I have continued trying to determine optimal speaker placement and they continue to move out into the room. The midrange drivers are currently 6 feet 7 inches out from the rear wall, and 4 feet, 2 inches from the side walls. This location seems to give the best bottom end as well as linear response while at higher listening levels, not to mention a great soundstage. This placement also seems to lack the rear wall bass reinforcement at lower volume levels. This placement also seems to have a boost to the upper bass frequencies. This placement also requires longer cabling. LoL... can we go back to "the "look" of the room came out quite pleasing"?
*grins*

So... where does that put us? At this time I am seriously pondering the Rives Audio Consulting route. With the new home and all the "luxuries" that come with it, the audio fund bank has been left with not much other than lint. So, at this time before throwing money at changes that may or may not affect the sonic anomalies, I think I am going to defer to the experts.

Will have to draw up the room and descriptions and submit to Rives, then it should be a few weeks to a month or two before plans are back as to what needs to be addressed, or *gasp* if the room is "unfixable" ... Of course there is the option of the PARC or room correction devices but at this time with little or no funds, this is the last thought I wanted to be faced with after building the new home is to hear the room may be horrendous. Heh. Time will tell. All in all, I hope most of it could be corrected without having to sell a kidney.

I will try to check and update this thread more often.

Sincere thanks again for all the kind words. Don't get me wrong, I am extremely blessed to have this room and incredibly appreciate it. I was just blind and thought I will set up the system and all will sound perfect...

audiofankj November 30, 2005 00:34

Right on, Kirk! Enjoy that beautiful setup for many years to come.
Howard

boa2 November 22, 2005 15:51

Great looking room ,compliments the system ,after the long wait,you must be real pleased!

raytheprinter November 22, 2005 15:11

Looks LOVELY! After the wait, I bet you are enjoying being back in the saddle. Obviously the experience of moving into a brand new home is more than just the audio room, but having ready access to music you love, the way you know it should sound, helps a person bond with the new place!

artg November 22, 2005 08:50

Hey Kirk,

Really nice! I see that other chair just waiting fo me to join you in some nice listening!

Soon, as Im somewhat healed and on the move again..we'll definately have to get together again..That Nottingham is not too far from making an appearance Im sure, but I know your trying to find the best placement and tweeking the set up at the moment.

Congratulations on the new home and your dream of a dedicated listening area for the rig. Nice Job!--Ken

kehut November 22, 2005 00:23

Hi Kirk. I love the room! It has a coffered ceiling! I can attest to that beautiful ceiling's audio benefits, as I have a similar one. I love the quiet gray color you chose for the walls. The cabinet is gorgeous.

muralman1 November 20, 2005 21:47