Something Old Something New

by halcro on All Out Assault

Description

Transparent, spacious and detailed with a solid bottom-end foundation and an ease of presentation that comes only from speakers with none or only basic crossovers.

The speakers are custom-made and consist of 12" Hokutone undoped paper woofers run full-range wired directly to the speaker terminals. 5 " Scanspeak paper Mid/Woofers with 1 small capacitor. 1" Scanspeak Revelator silk dome tweeters with 1 small capacitor. No coils, inductors or resistors used anywhere.

Imagine a pair of dynamic speakers with the speed and transparency of the finest electrostatics like the original Martin Logan CLS but a wide sound stage and even wider Ôsweet-spotÕ?

Imagine that these same speakers had the bottom end depth and realism of the Magico M5 but even deeper and more defined with a treble extension that is purer and more detailed?

Imagine that these speakers were 95dB efficient and had a near negligible crossover with no resisters or inductors in the path of the electronics?

I believe this minimum crossover design to be one of the ÔsecretsÕ in the ease, transparency and dynamics of these custom-built speakers.

Turntables.

I don't listen to digital (except in the car and in the garden via shelf-mounted monitors)....

I simply have never heard 'digital' reproduced with the ambience, detail and realism of analogue.

As I listen to vinyl for approx. 3 hours every day...the turntable/arm/cartridge combination is important.

Assuming the turntables and tonearms are 'reasonable'....the greatest determinant to the 'sound' (after the speakers) I find.....is the cartridge.

For 30 years....I used one cartridge on one tonearm on one turntable and played it till it needed replacement?

For the last 10 years of that 30 year period.....I listened exclusively to LOMC cartridges including Koetsu Urishi, VdH Grasshopper (Symphonic Line), Clearaudio Concerto, Clearaudio Insider Gold, Lyra Helikon and Titan i, Dynavector XV-1s and ZYX UNIverse.

Up until the UNIverse.....none of these expensive cartridges gave me the visceral pleasure that I recalled from my earlier MM cartridges like the Nagaoka MP11, Garrott P77 and Stanton 681EEE?

Six or seven years ago....I moved back to 'vintage' MM cartridges and have been rewarded with the most exquisite sounds able to be extracted from vinyl grooves.

Every cartridge is different...even if sometimes the differences are slight?

Often..the differences are vast but mostly, the differences relate to the 'emotional content ability' of the cartridge.

And this is hugely affected by both the cantilever and the stylus. Changing either or both can profoundly change the abilities of the cartridge.

This is easily done with MMs with removable styli assemblies....but is also now easily done for MCs by qualified re-tippers.

The cartridge is the 'generator' of the sound of vinyl IMHO...and that is why I own so many...and have tried even more....
Read more...

Room Details

Dimensions: 17’ × 12’  Medium
Ceiling: 20’

Components Toggle details

    • TW Acoustic Raven AC-3
    3 Motor unsuspended German table. Nice table with great flexibility of arm mounting.
    • Continuum Audio Labs Copperhead
    Dual Pivot CAD designed plastic-resin super arm. Good with LOMC cartridges but is simply superb with high compliance MM cartridges. A truly universal modern arm. Finicky to change cartridges and make adjustments. certainly not user-friendly but once set, you can forget.
    • Davinci Audi Labs Grandezza 12
    Cocobolo wood arm in sapphire twin gimbel bearing. Nice and relaxed sound.
    • Graham Engineering Graham Phantom II
    Unipivot with Titanium armwand and Micro-poise. Good (but not spectacular) with low compliance LOMC cartridges. A poor match for all the high compliance MM cartridges I have tried.
    • TW Acoustic Raven AC-2
    Removed one motor from the AC-3 which now gives more accurate and consistent speed as gauged by the Sutherland Timeline. It also eliminates the eccentric loading on the platter given by the third Raven motor and gives 50% more contact area of belt to platter. Sold the Phantom II and replaced it with the legendary 30+ year old FR-66S 12" tonearm
    • Fidelity Research FR-66s
    A serious tonearm.
    • TW Acoustic Raven AC-2
    The Raven with 2 FR-66S tonearms and the Continuum Copperhead. The Copperhead is now the only tonearm I possess...with a 'fixed' headshell.
    • JVC Victor TT-81
    'Nude' 30 year old DD turntable with 3 specially cast solid bronze arm-pods. Puts to shame most belt-drive turntables but separate massive arm-pods ensure superlative performance.
    • JVC/Victor TT-81
    Nakedly nude in its stainless steel cradle. Virtually the equal of the TT-101 in its sound quality....but far less complex and costly...and more reliable.
    • JVC Victor TT-101
    Top of the line professional Laboratory Series DD turntable.
    • JVC JVC Victor TT-101
    The Laboratory Series DD top-of-the-line turntable from Japan's mighty production industry. Impossible to replicate today at a realistic price?
    • JC Victor TT-101
    The 'innards'. Heaven help me if something goes wrong with this?!
    • JVC Victor TT-101
    This features a coreless DC sevo motor with quartz locked positive AND negative servo control
    • JVC Victor TT-101
    With S/N of 75dB and speed deviation of 0.002% and drift of 0.0004% one needs to hear what perfect speed control does for a turntable.
    • Custom made Victor turntable stand
    Made from 316 solid stainless steel bar and rod.
    • Custom made Victor turntable stand
    Fabricated ex. 4mm thick 316 stainless sheet and 25mm diam. solid rod all welded, ground and polished.
    • Grace G-940
    30 year old oil-damped unipivot. A cheap but honest performer with high compliance MM cartridges.
    • Graham Engineering Phantom II
    A modern unipivot with much praise in the audio press. I tried it with three LOMC cartridges as well as many MMs and was unimpressed. On high-compliance MM cartridges.....this arm was simply inadequate. I sold it after a year.
    • Fidelity Reasearch FR-64s
    The "Prince" of tonearms surpassed only by its 12" big brother the FR-66s. Despite its Japanese design by the great Ikeda San, this arm displays a 'Teutonic' sparseness in 'Form following Function'. Great bearings and a rigid heavy stainless steel arm-tube make this a vintage 'Classic'. Surprisingly good with high-compliance MM cartridges as well as low compliance LOMCs. A serious arm.
    • Microseiki MA-505s
    30 year old superb arm with VTA,VTF and Anti-Skate all 'On-the-Fly'. A Japanese arm with the detail and feel of the famous pre-war Leica rangefinder cameras. Adjustments 'on-the-fly' make 'tuning' any cartridge, a breeze.
    • Fidelity Research FR-66s
    The 'King' of Tonearms, this 30 year old 12" arm will show you things from your cartridges that you have never heard before. Modern arms cannot compete with the authority of this monster? A serious arm.
    • SAEC WE-8000/ST
    The top of the line from this once mighty manufacturer, the WE-8000 is a 12" effective length (15" overall) featuring their famous double-knife-edge bearings. Extremely rare and originally only sold in Japan....I feel privileged to own this beauty. A serious tonearm.
    • SAEC WE-8000/ST
    Super detailing and design as is typical of all their arms.
    • SAEC WE-8000/ST
    Rugged yet finessed.
    • SAEC WE-8000/ST
    An off-set ceramic headshell which is NEVER available without the arm?! I can however, twist the cartridge in some of my standard headshells to obtain the correct alignment.
    • SAEC WE-8000/ST
    The off-set ceramic headshell for this rare tonearm is beautifully conceived and executed, extremely expensive and almost impossible to find as a 'stand-alone' item without the arm. The only problem with it however...is that with most cartridges it can sound sharp, flat and slightly brittle because of the glasslike thin ceramic base material. I much preferred the wood headshells from Yamamoto or Ortofon for metal bodied cartridges and metal headshells for plastic-bodied cartridges.
    • SAEC WE-308N
    Double knife edge Japanese jewel. Sounds as fine as it looks.
    • SAEC WE-308N
    Jewel-like detailing. Simply beautiful.
    • SAEC WE-407/23
    SAEC produced a range of beautiful tonearms, all featuring double-knife-edge bearings. The WE-407 is a model up from the WE-308 but shares its beauty and superb sonic abilities.
    • SAEC WE-407/23
    Jewel-like design an construction.
    • Various Vintage
    A trio of 30 year old vintage tonearms
    • Dynavector DV-507 MkII
    Bi-Axis Inertia Controlled, Dynamic Balance tonearm
    • Dynavector DV-507 MkII
    A monster of an arm. Extremely heavy and best suited to mounting on separate heavy armpod. When properly employed, demonstrates how much colouration (distortion) other arms impart. A true revelation.....
    • Purpose made Arm-Pods
    Solid bronze cast arm-pods finished in automotive lacquer. Weighing 25lbs per pod, the solid foundation for any tone-arm find its rewards in the sounds produced.
    • ZYX Universe
    Low output .24 Copper with silver base. One of the best LOMC cartridges I have heard and one of the only ones with which I can live.
    Nuff said!
    • Dynavector XV1s
    Low output moving coil. Not as 'clean' as the Universe but its colourisations are closer to 'live music' and thus easy to live with.
    • Dynavector XV-1s(modified)
    When my original XV-1s 'exploded' due to my stupidity....Axel Schurholtz rebuilt the entire cartridge still keeping a boron cantilever and Shibata stylus...but reducing the coils so that the output has been reduced from 0.24mV to 0.15mV.
    • Garrott Brothers P77
    A tweaked version of the A&R P77 by the Garrott Bros in Australia produced a wonderful rich-sounding MM cartridge in the early '80s.
    • Ortofon Ortofon M20FL
    MM cartridge first one on the right in the Fidelity research K5 cartridge holder case. A solid if not spectacular performer.
    • Sonus S Blue
    MM cartridge still available NOS second on the left in the FR-K5 cartrdige holder case.
    • Empire 1000ZE/X
    A 30-40 year old MM cartridge made in USA. This is a glorious full-bodied 'romantic' cartridge which should help balance any 'lean' sounding system.
    • Empire 4000D/III Gold
    Superb MM cartridge continuing the 'Empire-sound' tradition of the 1000ZE/X but with more refinement and slightly more neutral balance. Still wonderfully full-bodied which approaches the Zitgeist of 'live' music.
    • Technics EPC-100Mk3
    Famous 35 year old MM cartridge from Technics with its integral headshell. The following model (EPC-100Mk4) came without headshell. This is very pure and neutral with hardly any defining characteristics of itself which makes you believe it is perhaps a 'reference' cartridge? However I find its 'detachment' a little too clinical for constant long-term listening.
    • Audio-Technica USA AT-155LC
    A wonderful MM cartridge with an line-contact stylus which sets a standard in sound IMHO, that is the basis of the great Signet cartridges to follow. Neutral enough but with a heart and soul able to 'move' you.
    • Audio-Technica USA AT-20SS Limited Edition
    A vintage MM cartridge considered by some to be the pinnacle of Audio Technica's range. In my system, this cartridge had a lean sound balance with a rising top end and several deficiencies in the mid to low bass range. A faulty specimen?.........or a 'false God'?
    • Signet TK-3/155LC
    Signets were the 'cost-no-object' MM cartridges developed by Audio Technica mainly for the US market. This is lower range TK-3Ea with an AT-155LC line-contact stylus assembly replacing the standard stylus. A gutsy and commanding performer which brings out the best in all your records.
    • Signet TK-5Ea
    Middle of the Signet MM range, this cartridge is just a little more refined than the TK-3Ea but still packs all the emotion and depth symptomatic of these cartridges.
    • Signet TK-5/155LC
    The standard TK-5Ea with the AT-155LC stylus assembly installed. A slight improvement in refinement over the standard 5Ea seen 2nd from bottom right in a rare K10 cartridge holder case made by the OEM who made the K5 cases for Fidelity Research.
    • Signet TK-7e
    The best of the class in this series IMHO, the TK-7 series could be has with the 7e, 7SU or 7LCa stylus assembly. Each one a standard setting MM cartridge which combines richness and full body across the frequency spectrum with a neutrality and effortless which startles on first listen until one realises that this emotion was caused by a distinct projection of the 'real thing'......live music itself.
    • Signet TK-7SU
    The No.3 Shibata stylus assembly replacing the No.2 of the standard 7e MM cartriidge. This is for me, in my system, the current 'King' which comes the closest to cartridge 'perfection' that I have ever heard.
    • Signet TK-10ML
    The 'top-of-the-line' for this range of Signets, this cartridge does not, IMO, share the sonic signature of the TK-3,5 or 7. Instead of a full and satisfying presentation of the sound spectrum, this cartridge seems to be attempting to emulate the sound of MCs with their upper frequency emphasis intended to persuade us of their 'detail' extraction. Thin and lack-lustre in the bass, perhaps it requires more run-in time? Life is too short.
    • Fidelity Research FR-7f
    First available in 1978, the FR-7 series of LOMC cartridges designed by Ikeda San, were perhaps sold only in the Japanese and European markets. How else to explain the fact that the Supex cartridge was the 'rave' in the British and US audiophile press whilst we never heard of the Fidelity Research? Unlike the Supex, this 30 year old version of the LOMC can compete today with the very best $10,000+ overpriced examples.
    • Fidelity Research FR-7f/Lc
    The original FR-7f had a conical stylus but one day....mine sheared in half. Sent to Axel Schurholtz who replaced the stylus with a nude Line Contact which elevated the FR-7f to UNIverse standard.
    • Fidelity Research FR-6SE
    Sold only in the Japanese market in the late 1970s, this MM cartridge with elliptical stylus has a surprisingly low compliance (10x10-6cm/Dyne) for a MM and is thus designed to be suitable for the FR-64/66 range of high-mass arms produced by Fidelity Research.
    This cartridge is a colourful performer. No 'shrinking violet', it projects the fullest of sounds from the meaty bass to the lyrical sweet highs. Not as subtle or refined as the Signet TK-7SU, it nonetheless manages to convey a great deal of the essence of the 'real thing'. Perfect for transistor amps which may display top-end brittleness and/or recessed midrange performance.
    • Fidelity Research FR-5
    A low compliance MM cartridge sold only in the Japanese market and a lower range model to its FR-6SE cousin. When I first heard this model, I thought.....whoa....this is just too much of a good thing? All the colour and charm of the FR-6SE was amplified. The bass was fuller and less detailed, the midrange plumier with less depth whilst the highs were slightly dull. I had bought this cartridge after J.Carr (designer of the Lyra range of MC cartridges) recommended the FR-5E as being more refined than the FR-6SE but I could only find an FR-5 at the time.
    • Fidelity Research FR-5E
    I finally found a NOS 5E stylus assembly and realised that this would convert my FR-5 into an FR-5E but when I came to insert the new stylus, I found that the metal cartridge body was moving about in its plastic coupling piece whereby it was screwed to the headshell. This suddenly explained the bloated and plummy sound when listening the to FR-5. After some SuperGlue rectification and the insertion of the new 5E stylus assembly I mounted the cartridge in the Yamamoto HS-1AS headshell and listened with the FR-66s 12" arm. A beautiful rich sound....not what you would call 'neutral'...but containing most of the vividness of 'real' music.
    • Signet MR5.0Lc
    The MR ('Maximum Resolution') Line Contact Series. Has a lot of the Signet 'House' sound with a refined gentleness.
    • Clearaudio Virtuoso
    The black wood version. Modern available MM cartridge which displays many of the qualities of the best vintage models. Doesn't quite reach the stellar heights.
    • Clearaudio Virtuoso
    My ebony wood Virtuoso was sent to Axel who replaced the original stylus with a nude shank Line Contact pressure-fitted into an aluminium cantilever. This raised the performance nicely but it was not until I thought to match the wood-bodied Virtuoso with the ceramic headshell of the WE-8000/ST that the performance hit the stratosphere. This combination is a revelation and may vie for the title of 'numero uno' in my collection?
    • Acutex LPM 310,312,315
    Vintage MM cartridge which is warm and friendly. Doesn't hit the heights of the very best ones.
    • Shure ML-140HE
    A surprise package. Wonderful sounding vintage MM from the great house of Shure. Competes with the 'big boys'.
    • Signet TK-7LCa
    The 'Holy Grail'. An original NOS unused TK-7LCa with original Signet line contact stylus. This one is just too hard to beat...
    • Audio-Technica USA AT150ANV
    A modern attempt by AT to match some of their classic vintage cartridges....particularly the legendary TK-7LCa. Does it succeed?.....not quite. It misses the emotional content.
    • Garrott Brothers P77/SAS
    The legendary Garrott P77 with the Jico SAS new stylus implant. With this stylus....the P77 enters the realm of the top cartridges I've heard.
    • Audio-Technica USA AT-13Ea/155Lc
    This is a 'Franken-Cartridge' cobbled together by the Professor(Timeltel) who 'grafted' an AT-155Lc stylus onto the very modest 13Ea. This cartridge competes at the very highest level.
    • Signet AM-10/155Lc
    A gift from the Professor(Timeltel)...this AM-10 has the AM-20 stylus and sounds wonderful. Substitute the 155Lc stylus assembly...and it competes with all the big boys.
    • Shure V15/Type III
    A past classic that was ubiquitous. And for a good reason...this cartridge produces the 'essence' of 'emotion' and midrange clarity. Add the Jico Sass stylus and it competes at the highest levels.
    • Glanz MFG-51L
    Better than the 31L, 71L or G5 IMHO...this Glanz 'moving flux' is interesting and involving. Does it reach the ultimate heights? Perhaps not.....?
    • Denon DL-103R
    Ubiquitous LOMC cartridge which originated 50 years ago and is still in production. This one is hand selected for identical channel outputs...and is a bargain at the price.
    • MIT MIT-1
    A LOMC which is seldom heard of....the MIT-1 sounds more like the top vintage MM cartridges in my collection. It competes at the very top level.
    • Acutex LPM420-STR
    NOS vintage MM cartridge. Better than the 300 series...but struggles to compete with the 'Big Boys'
    • Sony XL-55
    Medium compliance LOMC cartridge which can track at 1.5-2.5 Gm. Unique coreless armature coil wound like a figure-8 with beryllium, carbon-fibre and aluminium cantilever. The presentation and clarity of this cartridge is startling.
    • Kondo KSL SF-Z
    Step-up Transformer (SUT) for LOMC cartridges
    • Kondo KSL SF-Z
    Japanese hand wound SUT
    • Kondo KSL SF-Z
    SUT
    • Kondo KSL SF-Z
    Japanese SUT. Better than the active LOMC stage of the Halcro DM10. Worth a try.
    • Halcro Preamp DM10
    DM10 solid state with inbuilt MM & MC phono stage
    • Halcro Amplifiers DM-58
    Solid state Monoblocks
    • Custom made 3 way moving coil sealed box.
    12" woofers run full-range. No inductors, coils or resistors in signal path.
    • Drivers & Capacitors Scanspeak & Duelund
    Golden Section Notice the size of the Duelund VSF capacitors compared the Scanspeak 51/4" MidWoofer driver. The 44uF Duelund for the mid/woofer is as large and as heavy as the driver it feeds. The thinner Duelund is the 5.6uF for the tweeter.
    • Vandersteen 2Wq
    3x8" woofers powered by internal 300w amp with 'feed-forward' error correction and adjustable Q settings. A stereo pair positioned directly behind each main speaker.
    • Vandersteen M5 High-Pass filter
    Active high-pass for 2Wq subs
    • Audeze LCD2
    Planar magnetic headphones
    • Schiit Lyr
    Valve head amp
    • Marantz ST-17
    Black
    • Nakamichi BX-100
    Black
    • Cardas Clear
    Fully Balanced XLR connection from Halcro DM10 to fully differentially balanced Halcro DM58 Monoblocks
    • Cardas Clear
    Very pure speaker cables
    • PS Audio P3 AC Regenerator
    The PerfectWave Power Plant 3 is a state-of-the-art AC regenerator that regulates and regenerates the AC line voltage, producing clean, low distortion AC power.
    • Shindo Mr T
    Transformer-based Power Conditioner. Connected to both turntables and Preamp. Does it work?......perhaps....
    • Hannl Mera EL RCM
    Supplied by TW-Acustic, this top-of-the-line RCM from Hannl does a good job in quick time with minimum noise. I use it with my trusty Steamatey steam cleaner using distilled water and finish with a distilled water rinse...thus avoiding any chemical use on the records.
    • ZYX Universe
    Low output .24 Copper with silver base. One of the best LOMC cartridges I have heard and one of the only ones with which I can live.
    Nuff said!
    • Fidelity Research FR-6SE
    Sold only in the Japanese market in the late 1970s, this MM cartridge with elliptical stylus has a surprisingly low compliance (10x10-6cm/Dyne) for a MM and is thus designed to be suitable for the FR-64/66 range of high-mass arms produced by Fidelity Research.
    This cartridge is a colourful performer. No 'shrinking violet', it projects the fullest of sounds from the meaty bass to the lyrical sweet highs. Not as subtle or refined as the Signet TK-7SU, it nonetheless manages to convey a great deal of the essence of the 'real thing'. Perfect for transistor amps which may display top-end brittleness and/or recessed midrange performance.
    • JVC Victor
    DD turntable

Comments 131

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Owner
I have never been a 'headphone' enthusiast....but a year ago...I thought I would give it a try?
I studied the latest 'raves' on Head-Fi and other sites and soon purchased the AUDEZE LCD 2 and SCHIIT LYR head amp to power them.
The Audeze's are Planar Magnetic open-backed phones and I was interested in hearing the sound of my 'System'....with the room 'effect' taken out of the equation?
A major disappointment!
Not only did I not enjoy the 'music in my head' experience......but I found that my speakers....at even low volumes.....gave me more information about the recordings than the head-phones.
I am able to distinguish the differences between cartridges, arms and turntables quite readily with my speakers.....yet am unable to via the headphones?
The 'quality' of recordings on vinyl which are easily apparent via my speakers....are obscured with the head-phones?
Try as I might.....I cannot fathom the attraction of the 'headphone brigade'?
Am I wrong?

halcro

Owner
Hi Chris,
How slack of me not to have seen your question?!
The addition of the Shindo Mr T power conditioner plus the Cardas Clear balanced XLR interconnects have dropped the noise floor significantly so that differences between cartridges, headshells, styli and set-up...are far more discernible.

I have been on a tonearm upgrade over the last few months and have added another FR-66s as well as THE WE-8000
HERE
MORE
AGAIN
HEADSHELL
AND MORE
OH BOY
A serious arm.

halcro

Hi Henry - have your impressions of your TT's, arms, cartridges changed with the improvements you made with power/cabling in your system ?

Cheers Chris

ct0517

Owner
Hi Eckart,
I hope you enjoyed your holiday? It seems to have been a long one :^)

The experiments with the thread-drive have been very interesting.
I have tried a single thread around two of the Raven motors......a single thread around one Raven motor and two individual threads independently connected to two Raven motors.
It is great to have the Victor TT-101 as the 'Absolute Sound' control module against which to compare all experiments?
It is also invaluable to have the Timeline to be able to confirm the accuracy of both the speed and more importantly.....it's consistency.
It also significantly, tells you which variation has the least amount of stylus drag which to me.....is an important indicator of a good motor/controller and turntable?

It is of course very possible that a turntable designed to work with a 'grippy' rubber belt........will not always be improved running with a 'slippery' thread?

I hope you are back to enjoying your wonderful system and multiple tape decks? :^)

halcro

I am glad your system "is alive" Henry. Just having returned from the so called paradise I was reading about your experiments with the threads. This is really worth the efforts. Enjoy!

best & fun only

thuchan

Owner
Thank you Eckart.
And a Happy New Year to you and your loved ones.
May 2012 bring good listening and good health.
Henry

halcro

Frohe Weihnachten Henry

Eckart

thuchan

Owner
Yes.......that's what the ad said 6 weeks ago also!
But you'll notice in the fine print that he says......."No returns accepted. Call seller if there's a problem".
When the unfortunate purchaser calls with the 'problem'.......he offers them $200-$300 refund for them to have it fixed locally.....ha ha.
End of problem.
I was lucky. I hope others are also?

halcro

That's a travesty. I've bought headshells from him with no issues, but now I'm glad I never bought any electronics. His ad reads 100% functional?! Some people can sure tell tall tales. Price is nice though--too bad it doesn't work :).

banquo363

Owner
A Warning!
I've had a lot of Emails from people asking where they can buy a Victor TT-101 turntable?
These are very scarce items and rarely come up for sale.
I have been looking for over a year.
If one ever does come up........they are so complex (unfortunately) that if something does not work, it is unlikely to be able to be fixed?

I have been informed that a TT-101 is currently being advertised on European EBay by Foxtan.
I actually bought this very TT-101 from him 6 weeks ago and nothing on it worked properly.
Luckily I had paid by PayPal and eventually he was forced to return my
payment despite resisting it for 4 weeks.
He tried to re-advertise this TT-101 on US EBay and they apparently stopped him so that he is now trying to off-load it in Europe.
Do not buy from this man in Hong Kong.
You have been warned.

halcro

Hi Henry - that was a really informative article. No biases from what I read. I think it clearly demonstrates how imperfect and complicated this vinyl hobby is. The belt drive is the most complicated to get right from what I read ?

Now I understand why these high cost belt drives attempt to use more than one motor. After I saw the Onedof I considered adding two more belts to the TNT I own for fun to see what would happen. Now I am wondering about it. All that expanding and contracting. Good thing I use my ears to decide.

I totally agree that the TT motor/platter is part of the software - and not the hardware needed to extract this info. Anyone that has not contemplated using or used an armpod would have a hard time I think understanding this concept ?

Recommend you post the link with your summary on Copernican. It will get some really thinking.

Thx for posting it.

Cheers Chris

ct0517

Owner
Hi Banquo,
I've been sitting here hoping that someone would ask this very question :^).....thank you.
I have never implied that the turntable is not important in the analogue playing system just as I have never denigrated the importance of the arm or cartridge.
My thesis was simply that the turntable was not the 'centre' of the record-playing system.
Let's just examine what I have just done..........without touching an arm-board or an arm, without changing cartridges or phono-cables, without adjusting VTA or VTF or resistance or capacitance......I have slid out one turntable (revolving platter) and slid in another.
I have changed 100% of the drive system without affecting any other variable whatsoever.
I could theoretically do exactly the same and slide in a 'belt-drive' system or an 'idler-drive' system......all without altering in anyway, the centre of the system......the arm-pod?
If you re-read the attached link by Peter Moncreif, you will see perhaps the most revolutionary (yet true) statement which has not consciously occurred to me before.
The record provides only HALF of the waveform information required to reproduce it.....the amplitude.
The turntable provides the other half of the waveform information required to reproduce it........the time domain.
From that viewpoint.......there is some truth to the fact that the turntable is part of the 'software' of the music (like the disc itself), rather than part of the 'hardware' required to extract that information?
I am more convinced than ever before, that the Copernican view of the turntable system is a more logically tenable position.

The TT-101 is definitely on 3 tip-toes just as the TT-81 was. It still must be rigid, perfectly level and de-coupled.

halcro

Hi Halcro:

I skimmed the document you linked to. Good read. Doesn't it affect your Copernican thesis. Perhaps now we need a 'Twin Star' thesis. BTW, astronomers recently found a planet in a two sun system.

The TT-101 is intriguing, and at a very reasonable cost, a true bargain. Do you have it just sitting on the console? No footers? I might get one if I can find it.

banquo363

Owner
Hi Lew,
Thank you for your appreciation.
With your Kenwood and SP10MkIII I appreciate that you know the sound of a fine DD model/
I think what Travis might be referring to is the Victor TT-801 which is the TT-101 but with vacuum hold-down?
I have a lot of experience with these devices through my friend Richard and I don't find the case for them compelling enough? :-)

halcro

Owner
Hi Chris,
You are right.......the differences between the TT-81 and Raven AC-3 were subtle although there was a slight superiority with the DD sound over the belt-drive on certain source material such as solo piano.
The TT-101 is a different animal entirely.
The only difference that is published by Victor/JVC......is that the servo control on the coreless DC motor acts on the positive side (forward) AND negative side (reverse) of the platter movement.
This means that 'over-correction'....a possibility with servo-control.....is detected and corrected immediately rather than when the platter falls below the theoretical speed constant again.
Everything else about the TT-101 over the TT-81 is ostensibly identical....the entire body, the platter the dimensions, the materials.....even the motor (although what accounts for the extra 2Kg in weight is not explained)?
The electronics however, are a different animal. If you look at the innards of the 101....it is simply packed with additional flexible PCBs and bundles of wiring looms which alone.....could almost account for the extra 2 Kg weight.

When one plays a record however........it is jaw-dropping time.
Where the TT-81 had a subtle shift in dynamics.....the TT-101 was a paradigm shift. The ball was out of the ballpark.
I was transfixed and speechless.
The more I listened, the more I wanted to and more that I did, the more I heard from my vinyl than I ever knew was there.
After 7 hours of listening, I suddenly thought to myself........I've heard this 'sound' before.
This was the Rockport Sirius III.
Now, for the many who have never experienced a Sirius III let me tell you......it sounds nothing like a belt-drive turntable.
From the upper mids right through the entire upper frequency spectrum, the Rockport simply delivers a transparency, delineation and composure unmatched in my experience. Together with a revelation in information retrieval process, the Sirius III is unmatched in comparison to other turntables. The Continuum Caliburn does not display this feature in the upper registers and does not compete in this information retrieval revelation.
The TT-101 displays exactly the same traits as the Rockport in this regard and is thus the only other turntable I have heard to sound like this.
The Achilles heal of the Rockport, was its performance in the domain below the upper-mids.
From the deep bass foundation to the lower mids, there was a perceived 'recession' which disclosed a discontinuity between the 'bottom half' and the 'top half'.
I never figured out the causes of this as it could well have been the associated equipment......all valve single-ended amplification and Peak Consult speakers...but I suspect it may have been the limitations of the parallel-tracking Rockport tonearm?

The TT-101 shares none of this lower-register reticence but continues its remarkable presentation all the way down to the depths of the ultra-bass.

Fascinated by this similarity in sound between the two turntables separated by 30 years of development.......I began reading up on the Sirius III and its technology.
I was stunned at the similarity between the two.
The Rockport has an air-bearing platter which essentially makes it a light load for the motor which is a servo-controlled DC coreless design like the TT-101.
The Victor platter is physically light-weight (compared to an SP10MkIII) so that its bi-directional servo-control can act instantaneously.
The servo-control motor on the Rockport cost $15,000 for Andy Payor to buy and he sells it for $30,000 installed on the Sirius III which is nearly half the $74,000 asking price of the complete turntable so you know that this is one hell of a motor and servo controller.

Intrigued by all this, and now firmly convinced that it is 'speed accuracy control' that is the prime goal of a turntable, I did some further reading.
I came across an article by Peter Moncreif of the International Audio Review where he also, was doing a review on the Rockport Sirius III.
TT DRIVE SYSTEMS
This is the most cogent, educated and illuminating treatise I have ever read on this subject and it goes some way to explaining why a belt-drive TT will not sound the same as a super high-tech bi-directional servo-controlled DD.

halcro

Kudos for the TT-101. I was discussing this model with Travis some months ago, and I believe he indicated that there is an even rarer Victor model that sits higher in the pantheon than even the TT-101. If I am correct, it was Japan-only, like the TT-101. Or else, my memory could be faulty. In any case, it is good that we share this appreciation of the best vintage dd turntables.

lewm

Hi Henry - congratulations on finding this rare piece. Are the differences between the Raven and the TT-101 clearer now, than with the TT-81 where I believe you said the differences were subtle ?

ct0517

Owner
System edited: For more than a year, after adding the 'nude' Victor TT-81 turntable to my system, I have been scouring the internet for the 'top-of-the-range' big brother.....the legendary TT-101. Having started my audio life with Technics DD, then a Rega Planar 3 and Raven AC-1 till my current Raven AC-3 and Victor TT-81.....I had heard mostly subtle differences in the 'sound' of well-designed turntables regardless of the drive system implemented? I have had long sessions listening to my friend's Linn LP12 and Basis Debut Gold and Rockport Sirius III and currently the Continuum Caliburn so I am familiar with the 'sounds' of state-of-the-art turntables. I have never, however, heard a difference like the TT-101 makes to a recording? As the TT-81 is almost identical except for the motor and the quartz lock on the negative servo drive as well as the positive.....I can only surmise that the differences I hear are due solely to the speed accuracy achieved and maintained by the TT-101? The sound of this TT is revelatory and is testament to what can only be achieved by the investment of large funds by huge corporations when the costs can be amortised over millions of lesser units sold in a vast market? The complexities of the electronics in the TT-101 over the TT-81 are staggering to behold for just a 'speed' related improvement and I suspect there innovations here which we may never see again? The Victor TT-101 is a landmark in Japanese turntable design but is a scarce and complex commodity. One which few will ever get to hear of appreciate.

halcro

Owner
Hi Chris,
The closest I've come to a direct comparison of 'drive types' is using a dozen of my cartridges (both LOMC and MM) in the FR-66S tonearm mounted on the Raven AC-3 whilst listening to those same cartridges in the FR-64S tonearm setup with the Victor TT-81.
Any differences able to be attributed to 'drive type' are subtle in the extreme IMHO.
Just when I think I can detect a somewhat more dynamic 'drive' when listening to the TT-81, a quick change (40 seconds) to the Raven AC-3 reveals the presence of a questionable illusion.
There is just as much 'drive' in the belt-drive.
Without the ability to quickly change turntables/arms/cartridges (as I have), it would be easy to delude oneself about the audible differences in those components IMHO?

halcro

Hi Henry -

was curious if you ever tried one of your armpods with a tonearm and cartridge of choice on the Raven and the JVC TT-81 same time to compare drive systems - Belt versus DD ?

Cheers Chris

ct0517

Dear Henry,
at the High End in Munich I was talking to Thomas Woschnick. He is offering an armbase also with VTA but he told me he is selling this only with his own tonearm.

If I would own a product of a TT manufacturer who is trying to sell me such a philosophy I would doubt if he is taking care of me as a customer in a proper way.

I decided to build my own armboard (for the EMT R 80). I agree with T-Bone that you can do it by yourself. Take an aluminum bases and put a Micro Seiki armboard on top of it. BTW the Raven is build after the Micros. Now yo have no more excuse :-)

Yes, the Signets are a MM class of it's own!
thanks to you I got aware of this.

best and fun only - thuchan

thuchan

Halcro,
My gut feeling is that with a little imagination on how you would deal with the top plate of your armpod, you could come up with a solution (I'd try a round top plate with a bar sticking out of it, tapped at the end for the arm rest). For me, the one thing lacking is a good VTA adjustment. I am trying to figure out a good solution to the issue because I love mine.

t_bone

Owner
Dear Eckart,
I'm happy that you are enjoying some of the better MM cartridges like the Signets.
They seem to have an ease in presentation, particularly the midrange, which I find more like live music than most MC cartridges manage?
The SAEC 506/30 certainly attracts me but the arm restraint needs to be mounted on a table plinth and with both the Raven and TT-81 tables, there is no possible mounting position for this holder?

halcro

Dear Henry,
I would go for a SAEC 506/30 and mount it on your Raven. If you have the chance do rewire the arm from headshell to connectors by Ikeda silver wire. It is a wonderful match for some of your beloved MM carts. You need to secure that you get a good unit with fully intact knifes.

BTW do you have a TK3E with original needle? If not try to get one, I think it is worth a try. Thanks for all the good hints on MMs I received from your side...

best & fun only - Thuchan

thuchan

As a dip-the-toes arm, the SAEC WE-308N is quite nice. The prized one is the SX. The long one is also decent. All of them require a little jiggering of the cart in the headshell but your pod system is perfect for getting the most out of SAECs as you can adjust mounting distance to whatever you like.

The SAEC WE-8000 S/T is, as far as I know, only 12" long - a couple of mm shorter than the SME 12" arms in terms of effective length. It is possible that a 14" arm got made, because there were always some tweaks done on the edges for some people, but I have never seen one. The WE-8000 S/T, under normal circumstances, is a fantastically rare and expensive arm. You might be hard-pressed to find someone to trade one for your FR-66S. I have never (not once) seen a replacement headshell for one of these arms.

Unless you have a hankering to use stupidly high-compliance carts, I can suggest that a 506/30 with a very light headshell might do you almost as well.

Disclosure: I will be selling some arms soon which will include at least one SAEC so fell free to take anything I say about SAEC with a bucket of salt.

Note to disclosure: I have and love a 506/30 and a 407/23 and I will not be selling those two which are mounted on my Micro Seiki any time soon.

t_bone

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