Larry, thanks for the kind comments.

mikelavigne July 17, 2015 21:59

awesome thread! love the experiene. cannot thank you enough for letting us in your room with those awesome photos.

cerrot July 17, 2015 08:53

Great update with the enlarged pictures.
Extremely nice.
Thanks!

lak July 17, 2015 07:53

suck out fixed. i think.

my room designer designed a whole ceiling bass trap into my room. it was 15" deep and covered the whole 21' x 29' ceiling. except for -6- inset 6' x 8' chambers. these chambers had fabric covered vertical openings with Corning 709 fiberglass in the openings. you can see the chambers in the ceiling of my room pictures. the idea was that this bass trap would control the bass; but clearly in retrospect it was a huge mistake. now 11 years later that mistake has been rectified.....finally.

4 years ago I did have a contractor remove the fabric panels from 4 of the 6 chambers and glue and screw 3/4" finished maple plywood over these openings; which did improve the bass response. I thought that fixed my issue. I was wrong.

last May, 14 months ago, my speaker designer was here for 2 days to do the final tweaking to my Evolution Acoustics MM7's. when he measured the room he found a fairly wide -12db suck out at 30hz, one that the room dimensions did not logically predict. he strongly suspected that the remaining openings in those center chambers were the likely cause. since the MM7's are so powerful and adjustable, he was able to minimize the effect of the suck out with adjustments, but at the cost of ultimate performance. he did strongly suggest I get those openings covered. he even gave me two sets of settings sheets for the 4 sets of adjustments (2 sets on each bass tower).......one for the 'compensated' adjustments he made, and another for 'flat' adjustments anticipating my getting those openings sealed up.

since last May I have given a good amount of effort into finding a contractor to do that work, but was not successful.

then this spring I went thru the experience with the fabric treatments that really took things up a few notches. I had quite a few people thru the room and the feedback was very positive. I knew that somehow I needed to do this final thing and hopefully that would allow the bass performance that was already amazing to go to the optimal level. I was fully motivated to get this done with my excitement from the big step forward from the fabric treatments.

I realized if I wanted to get this done i had to do this myself.

finally I was able to convince my son (I bribed him by giving him one of my bicycles) to help me do this nasty job. I spent last week buying -3- 4' x 8' sheets of finished 3/4" maple plywood, another 8 foot step ladder (we would be working at 10'-11'), a good quality circular saw, saw horses, and all the other bits and pieces we would need. my son had a 208 mile one-day STP (Seattle to Portland) bike ride on Saturday and did not get home till late, so Sunday morning a spent 2 hours clearing out the room.....everything to the sides....racks moved, tape decks moved. big job. tarp laid. ladders set up. neither of us are carpenters; could we rip the panels without chipping? could we even cut a straight line?

would it actually make a positive difference?

we did not know exactly how we would remove the fabric panels or how they were attached. would we be able to get them out without removing the trim pieces? we did not posses the skills to properly replace the trim.

he showed up around 10:30am and we first removed the 8 deflector panels with in the chambers and then got to work pulling off the fabric panels, 4 per chamber, 8 total. we were able to get them out with considerable caution and effort without disturbing the trim. then we measured and started ripping the sheets and cutting to size. I had a work commitment mid afternoon for 2 hours, and returned. finally about 9 that night we screwed and glued the final plywood sheet. then he left and I spent 2 hours reassembling the room. I'd had a listening visitor from California the previous day and then the previous night I'd had a work dinner till midnight. I'm not a young guy. I was gassed. I tried to listen. was it boomy sounding? if that 30hz -12db suck out was solved to a significant degree that old set-up would cause the lower bass to be boomy. I thought it was boomy but fell asleep right away. the next morning before work I was not yet recovered enough to listen.

finally after work that night I had recovered enough to listen and went thru my digital listening references and the lower bass was clearly boomy, if not quite a bit more energetic sounding. I had spoken to my speaker designer earlier and he said I should shut off the amps in the bass towers and see if it sounded clean. if it did that indicated that the closing of the openings had not likely caused other issues. I did that, went thru my references again, no problem, sounded very clean. so then I turned the bass towers back on and adjusted both the 'bass level' and the 'bass quality' (Q) halfway to the 'flat' positions and listened to the references again. better, less boomy. much more energy. some magical things happening. then I went 3/4 to the flat positions and again listened. now it was a big WOW! everything was now at a whole new reference level. all up and down the frequency range. a whole new level of coherence and naturalness. vocals were superb sounding. much more holographic. bass impact a couple orders of magnitude better. so I just listened late until early morning Tuesday and again after not much sleep in the morning. I was stoked.

that night I first listened as it was; then found a good cut and moved the 'bass quality' the last little bit to the flat position. clearly better. then I moved the 'bass level' the last little bit to the flat position and it was super clean and right. it sounds perfect to me now; I've been listening for 2 days now to it and I'm just beside myself. as good as it had been; it's not only much better but much different than even Saturday night. what is so crazy to my mind is how much different vocals and the mid range is simply by eliminating a 30hz suck out. it was very interesting hearing how much detail had been covered by those adjustments which were pegged to cover the suck out when taken to flat all that detail jumped out.

the MM7's are now fully unleashed and are something to behold!

how close to absolutely flat is it? don't know. I hope it can get better from here.....but maybe not. is the suck out all the way gone? how flat is my room? don't know yet. and once I measure it I may or may not post it. we all know how much I love graphs.

I suppose I have a persecution complex posting about discovering my personal mistakes. I know from time to time that comes back to haunt me when ner-do-wells want to give me some crap. but so what. I feel that these sort of experiences contribute to the collective knowledge. and one has to be open to learning and going farther down the road.

my goal 11 years ago with my efforts was to get the room and system out of the way of the music; I think I've essentially done that finally.

oh and btw, this job cost me about $250 in materials and I did acquire approx. $450 worth of tools and a ladder. I was going to give the bike to my son anyway but he did not know that. so between the fabric and this job about $500-$600 and the effect is off the charts.

mikelavigne July 17, 2015 02:25

thanks Mark.

I do think that for systems which are spacious enough where they don't need aggressive diffusion in first reflection spots and don't want tonal changes from excess absorption, fabric wall coverings do a great job of knocking down brightness and smear and are easy and cheap to do. and they can look as good as you want and be totally WAF compliant. and it's cheap cheap to try it.

mikelavigne July 17, 2015 00:18

Thanks Mike....what an epic journey! Kudos for coming up with such a common sense and reasonbly priced approach to the whole problem. I'm sure you've got everybody thinking about fabric treatments now !

zephyr24069 July 14, 2015 22:48

hi Mark,

glad you like the pictures, thanks.

read this post from 4-27-15 for background on the fabric panels.

as far as the type of fabric i used three different types of fabric which all seemed to work. they were all polyester medium weight with a fair amount of surface texture. the biggest issue is how easy it is to cut and whether it unravels. i found some neutral colored velveteen which worked like a charm since it cut easy and layed flat and did not unravel. you can go to a fabric store and for pennies buy some remnants and pin it up on your wall and listen. if it sounds better then you can decide how good you want it to look.

mikelavigne July 13, 2015 18:58

hi Tom,

sorry for the delay in my response...busy weekend.

thank you for the kind words.

I found your system from a search on the Durand Talea II. Impressed you went to two Talos'. I just bought the Talea and await the arm. Replacing a solid Triplanar.

prior and during my ownership of the original Talea and Talea II i did own the Triplaner VII along with 3 different Reed arms and a Schroeder Ref SQ (and a Rockport Sirius III). to my ears the Durand tone arms had a different higher level of microdynamic energy and tonal complexity along with a lower noise floor. the music was more alive. and all of those other arms were fine tone arms.

I notice your fabric treatment is over only small portions of the walls. How thick is it? How far do you offset it from the wall? I have sheer curtains on my windows behind my speakers.

I had some help putting diffusion panels behind my listening area which completely messed up my tonal balance -shrill top end.

acoustical answers are never simple since music is so complex and rooms are so different. trying to isolate cause and effect in any room can take years of investigation. i have been in my room for 11 years and i am still learning about it.

before i answer your question it might help to read this post from 4-27-15 which will give you some background on these fabric panels.

the panels are pinned to the wall with thumb tacks and push pins. so they sit against the wall. intentionally i did not want them out from the wall. the reason is that the further out from the wall they are the more they will change the tonality of the sound. my purpose was to knock down the high frequency reflections in first reflection areas, but not to deaden or warm up the sound. if your intention is broader frequency absorption, then you would have more space behind the fabric, or maybe use heavier fabric or multilayered fabric....like heavy drapery. that approach can muffle the sound. my room is designed around lots of energy and diffusion, not absorption. but it was too live and the ultra reflectivity masked lots of detail and shifted tonality to the higher frequencies.

as far as sheer curtails over your windows, i have found that a pleated window shade seems to work much better to neutralize the window effect. it has enough mass to minimize the glare from the window, but is not dead sounding.

i hope that helps.

Since you have a beautiful acoustic room and a topflight 1/2 inch reel to reel, have you considered buying or borrowing a set of studio mics and having a small string quartet etc record 2 channel direct to your R2R?

i have thought about doing some recording in my room but so far it has not worked out. i have a friend with a Gypsy Jazz Guitar Quintet which i'd love to record. maybe someday.

mikelavigne July 13, 2015 18:46

hi Bob,

sorry for the delay in my response. I had out-of-town listeners visit on Saturday afternoon, Saturday night and Sunday afternoon I had company events, and all day Sunday ( before and after my company event) I had a listening room project. it was a fun but exhausting weekend.

I appreciate your kind words. I do enjoy my system every time I listen, and consider myself lucky. you would be welcome to be the fly on the wall anytime you are in the neighborhood.

i took a look at your system and it also is a great place to listen. nice job!

enjoy.

mikelavigne July 13, 2015 17:55

Mike: Thanks for posting the full-size pics; they definitely convey just how beautiful and well-planned the room and the system are. Very much appreciated!

What led to the application of the fabric treatments? What type of fabric is it and how did you determine where to apply it?

As always,...hope all is well and you are enjoying this dream system!

zephyr24069 July 11, 2015 23:13

Hi Mike

Impressive system would be a major understatement for your labor of love

I found your system from a search on the Durand Talea II. Impressed you went to two Talos'. I just bought the Talea and await the arm. Replacing a solid Triplanar.

I notice your fabric treatment is over only small portions of the walls. How thick is it? How far do you offset it from the wall? I have sheer curtains on my windows behind my speakers.

I had some help putting diffusion panels behind my listening area which completely messed up my tonal balance - shrill top end.

Since you have a beautiful acoustic room and a topflight 1/2 inch reel to reel, have you considered buying or borrowing a set of studio mics and having a small string quartet etc record 2 channel direct to your R2R?

audiotomb July 11, 2015 18:29

Mike;
Wow....wow...most incredible and beautiful room. It shows a lot of thought,care and passion. A perfect blend of outstanding sound in a fabulous listening environment. If only I could copy, or be a fly on the wall when you turn it all on...I'm sure it brings you a lot of pleasure and peace.
Congrats!

mribob July 11, 2015 14:07

fabric treatment pictures;

front fabric treatment

left side fabric treatment

right side fabric treatments

left front view

mikelavigne July 11, 2015 12:35

larger views of the pictures;

front

look back

458's

sources

mikelavigne July 11, 2015 12:23

System edited: more pictures.

mikelavigne July 11, 2015 11:59

System edited: updated some pictures to show current including fabric room treatments on ceiling, sides and front between the speakers.

mikelavigne July 11, 2015 11:20

Mike,
It's been some years ago, but I did have the pleasure to see/hear your system. I went with a bunch from Portland. I see that your system has changed and it would be a great experience to do it again sometime.

as I recall your visit was in 2007.....much has changed....in fact nothing is as it was then. I was at a different place on the same path I'm on now. I'd love for you to visit again and tell me what you think now.

As to the sound diffusors you built recently (with excellent results), might you have photos, or detailed instructions to share?
I've often felt the need to explore this inexpensive tweak.

I will try to post some photos for the fabric panels I have recently installed. this post from a month ago has some links to another forum with comments from recent visitors and pictures that do show most of the fabric panels.

thank you for the kind comments and I hope we can get together again.

best regards,

mikelavigne May 19, 2015 01:00

Mike,
It's been some years ago, but I did have the pleasure to see/hear your system. I went with a bunch from Portland. I see that your system has changed and it would be a great experience to do it again sometime.
As to the sound diffusors you built recently (with excellent results), might you have photos, or detailed instructions to share?
I've often felt the need to explore this inexpensive tweak.

Thanks and happy listening,
Oregon

oregon May 17, 2015 21:28

Hi Mike,
No need to apologize. I didn't realize that the piece is question was such old news; and it just caught my eye. I understand what you were saying completely.
It was really interesting to read about the difference the cloth hangings made to the sound of your system, and really got me thinking as well.
Carry on!
Thanks, John

roxy54 April 29, 2015 12:06

John,

I apologize for my bad manners. it's early and I guess I was not in the proper frame of mind to respond respectfully to your reasonable and helpful post.

if you read about my recent changes a few posts above I was not expecting to be responding to the cartridge plate issue.

anyway, thank you again for the kind words and sorry for my nasty tone.

best regards,

mikelavigne April 29, 2015 09:41

hello John,

sigh.

double sigh.

only on Audiogon would someone ask me that question. :)

at the time I added the cartridge plate (4 years ago) the design of the Durand Telos tonearm was in the discovery phase and that plate was an experiment which turned out not to be a long term feature going forward. my room was involved in the testing of the performance in that tonearm on a regular basis and so this sapphire plate was something I heard the sonic effect of and wanted for my own Telos tonearm. so I did get one for myself and asked the manufacturer what the list price for it should be if he sold them. I'm not saying that the hunk of synthetic corundum is worth much. but the cost of machining that particular shape and the degree of waste and rejected parts was such that the cost at that particular time projected to a $4750 retail price. I'm not sure he ever sold any, what anyone else paid, or any of those details. I'm sure if you have 100 watch crystals made of the stuff it costs one price; but if you have 2 or 5 of these cartridge plates made the cost is another value. the design of the Telos Sapphire has moved on from that part. I've replaced that cartridge plate with a one-piece composite armwand and moved that cartridge plate (which does add performance) to my stock regular Telos which still has the wood armwand where I have my mono cartridge.

surprise, surprise, I did not pay $4750 for that cartridge plate.

sorry if my response is less than upbeat. but this is old news. serves me right for not updating my system page and I suppose I should just remove the reference to it altogether. I'm sure you meant no harm and are only trying to be helpful to save me from myself and I take no offense.

and thanks for the positive comments too.

mikelavigne April 29, 2015 09:22

Mike,
I don't believe that I have posted on your virtual system before, but let me start by saying the obvious; it is one of the most thoroughly realized and as well as beautiful rooms and systems on all of Audiogon. It would be a thrill for me to hear it. I have learned many things from you, and you, like some other members are always kind and gracious in your comments and advice.
In that same spirit, I would like to comment on something I noticed today in the listing of all of the components and accessories in your virtual system. What caught my eye was the Durand sapphire cartridge plate.
I have been a jeweler for 37 years, and from what I can see, it consists of a carefully shaped and polished piece of synthetic corundum. (sapphire) This is the very same material which good watch crystals are made of. You list the price paid as $4,750, and I want to tell you, just in case you want to purchase more for use on other arms/turntables that you could have others made to the same specification by an experienced lapidary for a tiny fraction of that price, meaning a few hundred dollars.
I don't know enough to be able to contribute useful information about most things on these forums, but this is one thing that I do know something about, and I felt a need to tell you. The fact is, you could even choose a color if you liked. It's all the same material, with a little bit of metal oxide producing the different colors.
Obviously, you are able to afford what you like, but why spend money that you don't have to spend?
Great System!
All the Best, John

roxy54 April 29, 2015 02:50

This made very interesting reading.

My room is not as sophisticated as yours mike - however after moving recently I have managed to create a dedicated room in my house. I was very pleased with the overall sound with some major structural alterations and some acoustic treatment.

But, as we do, could it be better? - after reading various internet info (in particular http://realtraps.com was very useful) I have built some large bass traps for the walls beside the speakers. This immediately improved the already good imaging and bass definition.

Similar to yourself I went on to build two ceiling traps to reduce reflections and placed rugs in front of the speakers. This has made further improvements to imaging and detail.

Reducing reflections, especially primary ones, seems to be a relatively simple means to making significant improvements to the quality of the sound one hears. I know much has been written over the years about the most influential component in the system is the room, my recent experience has borne this out.

The combined effect of this DIY work has made a huge improvement - it has not over dampened or deadened the room - clarity, detail and sense of space have been the winners.

dctom April 28, 2015 09:46

Thank you for sharing Mike. I have been following your thread for years and appreciate that you graciously share your experience.
I found that everything matters, and the better the system components the more tweaking that is required to unlock the full potential.
The thing that does drive me crazy is that there is no definitive manual that one can follow, and no substitute for rolling up one's sleeves to experiment.

mark_nz April 28, 2015 03:44

almost free and 4 inches......the final 1%

.....or maybe the final 2%, or the final 5%......no matter.....the final step.

I built a full blown dedicated room now 11 years ago. I've made a number of changes to the original design over these many years, always getting closer to the ideal I've chased. I added a front set of RPG Skyline diffusers 7 years ago. I removed huge front corner bass traps and reinforced the room boundaries 5 years ago. I added side and ceiling diffusers then too. I closed up 2/3rdsof the ceiling bass traps 4 years ago. I figured I was done with the room.

I added the Equi=tech isolation transformer wall panel, and upgraded my duplex outlets 4 years ago. power grid all ok.

I've upgraded my speakers and amplifiers 2 years ago to my view of the ultimate......still waiting for that ultimate preamp.....maybe another 30 days. I'm completely satisfied that my sources are all top notch, or at least my view of what that might be.

I've got all the software I could want in all the formats I have an interest in.

but I was still not 100% satisfied with the performance. the system was 100% satisfying to listen to and I was not frustrated or anything like that. but I felt that there was more I should be hearing. I had visited a couple of rooms which had more apparent detail and imaging, and while I preferred my overall musical equation, those experiences convinced me that there was more to find from my system.

for a few years I had been looking at the first reflection areas in my room and wondered if those were a problem. my previous opinion had been that since my room was quite large and the reflection times were so long that logically those areas should not be a problem. and I was always afraid of adding diffusion or absorption and messing up the tonal balance or losing energy. a few friends recently had done full room treatments with some current rave treatments and torn them out when they realized they had lost the musical flow and tonal fire. and yet.....what if? 3 years ago I had thought of adding some RPG wood surface diffusion to these areas and priced it out; it came to $17k for what I wanted. and I was again concerned that I would throw off the tonal balance. my mind went back and forth.

I knew what happened when I tried some Navajo carpets on the walls; it sucked out the mid range. so I could not do much. the room was too sensitive to do that.

I considered I did not want to dampen the room at all or change the tonality. I just wanted to knock down the first reflections. what if I just put some cloth over the first refection points?

so one Saturday afternoon a little over month ago I decided to dive in. I went upstairs and found some left over material from my original fabric covers of my bass traps from the room construction. I measured and found I had enough to treat the drop ceiling between the speakers and listening position, and the side rounded diffuser on either side of the Skyline diffusers between my speakers. I had to go to the hardware store to buy some push pins, grabbed my wife's fabric scissors, and I dragged out the ladder. 3 hours later I had cloth covering the drop ceiling (22" x 60" on each side) and the sides of the diffusers (36" x 89" on each side).

have you ever tried to pin fabric to a 10' tall hardwood ceiling? i used a combination of double-backed Velcro and push pins. my neck still hurts.

but i got it done. and listened.

a whole different system resulted. I could not believe it......or rather I believed it but could not believe it took me so long to figure it out. lots more detail.....more relaxed presentation and more full bodied placement of images in the soundstage.....much improved vocals.....pianos and violins were magical. and oh the tone!

this performance had always been there; but it had been covered up by the reflected hash from the first reflections. and prior to this treatment; when I raised the volume there would be an increase in the hash and it caused the system to sound hard and edgy. and especially the sweet spot was effected by this as it was closest to that area of drop ceiling I treated. and as always; you don't recognize distortion until it's removed. and part of the trick is not losing good content along with ridding yourself of distortion.

so I went thru a few days of listening to all my reference cuts and was living large. then I started to think if those areas resulted is such a dramatic change, why not other first reflection areas? my bass towers prevent first reflection of the near wall from the main towers; however, the opposite main tower can interact with the opposite wall. so I went to a fabric store and found some velour fabric with some texture and cut out some 72" pieces to treat three flat surfaces on each side wall. boom; better vocals and more solid images.

ok, if this worked what else? I looked and saw the round 10 foot long surface above and below the front diffuser. right at the floor and right at the ceiling. could first reflections bounce off the ceiling or floor and do harm? only one way to find out. I had some black thin foam fabric I'd bought at the fabric store. I quickly cut out only a 6' long piece for the upper and lower rounded areas and pinned them up. and listened. better; vocals better. everything a little more focused.

I've always listened to music with the pleated window coverings up. many times i had closed them and listened but could never hear a difference. but that reflected hash had covered up other detail; what if now that i was hearing much more detail that those window coverings could make a difference? i lowered them and listened. better; more body and focus. not huge but a small step there to be enjoyed.

i imagine other small things will present themselves over time to be tweaked. but now it was so easy to hear the smallest change.

and all through this process I had paid very close attention to the tonality and energy levels. were there any trade-offs? in a word, hell no. in fact; every step came with greater dynamics and bass articulation. almost like the reflections had dampened things and I had released the music.

I had spent years and years doing all these things, pushing against this barrier of refection, and in a week of messing around spending less than $100 on some fabric remnants and push pins I had broke the code. a new system. wow.

my opinion is that I was right to not do too much. don't overthink it. you are simply trying to knock down the reflections and not to mess with the overall balance.

but I was not completely done. for a few weeks I had been in musical bliss. the Tres Amigos visited and heard what I had done. I'd not made a big deal about it. but it was a very big deal. then this past weekend I had other visitors who were very familiar with my system. they were blown away by how it now performed. but they thought it could be even better......something still missing. but why? eventually they asked a question? was I sitting at the equilateral triangle point? I said sure. then we measured. I was 4 inches back too far. we moved the listening position 4 inches forward and there it was.

the last little bit. vocals crazy good. super holographic imaging. (insert over the top phrase here). i have only listened to redbook since i did this step, and i am in hog heaven. the music is just so profound. after the previous steps of the last month this last step is almost too much.

this was yesterday morning.

20 years of chasing my musical ideal and I'm now listening to it.

I have been thinking about whether to post this since it will result in all sorts of reactions. do i need to get into all this stuff, how do i know i did the right thing? why didn't i use this product or that product? how does it measure before and after? blah, blah, blah.

if someone mentions DSP I'm going to puke......well not really.....but you get the idea. they first need to come and hear what I've done, then show me a system with DSP that can match this.....and i will consider it.

maybe someone will be helped by my experience?

so for almost free and 4 inches I've got to my personal musical reproduction mountaintop. (and my new dart preamp is still a few weeks away)

YMMV, only my 2 cents, and all that stuff.

mikelavigne April 27, 2015 23:46