Texas Heat with Apogees and TRL amps

Owner

Mike:

To be precise my room is 29' and a few inches long and 17' and a few inches wide.

I am going to have several dedicated lines, custom walls, ceiling, and two conduits in side walls (one in each) and one in the foundation slab to carry AV cables.

gallant_diva July 02, 2018 19:26

Owner

Hi Benjamin:

Thanks for sharing your experience. I still miss Paul and in face still haven't gotten over his departure. What a loss of the audio world, lost a genius and an excellent human being. Paul had a genuinely great heart. One day I will pay my tribute to Paul by writing my own story on how I met him and how we became friends.

By the way is there any description of your system especially your SET amps? Any pictures or description of your system will be appreciated.

Every time I listen to music, I hear Paul. He is just there because the amps, pre-amp, CD players are made by his own hands. I never intend to replace any of these, not only in memory of Paul, but there isn't anything better out there, at least not for my taste. I have always wondered where Paul got his ideas from.

gallant_diva July 02, 2018 19:24

Owner

Mike thanks. You are such a dedicated, knowledgeable and sweet friend that I can always count on your advice. I would love to hear your do's and don't do's

gallant_diva June 29, 2018 16:34

Owner

The new house construction finally started after 2 years in talking to builders and improving on design and budget, The audio room of course is the heart of the house. The lot if prepared and concrete for the foundation is going to be poured next week. The media room is 28' by 17.5' with a 17.5' by 5' storage room attached to it. The walls are gonna be built with cinder blocks, soundboard, wood studs, foam, and stucco on the outside. There will be 8 dedicated lines, and conduit in the foundation and side walls.

gallant_diva June 29, 2018 04:15

Owner

hello H_A, sorry for the late response.

I have not been very active here at audiogon lately for a few reason: One, too busy enjoying my system and there isn't much to improve. Second, started building a new media room.

With regard to your question, here is my take: I am trying to find superman. yes, superman!! If i find him, I will ask him to take two things out of our planet and trash them into a far away galaxy or blackhole: all nukes and all active crossovers working with Apogees. Hope that explains. Active crossover are toys that falsely trap you into a false sense of system and acoustic improvement. But they suck life out of music. I am done doing all such active versus passive comparisons. The secret to my good sound is the purest approach: less is more in high-end audio.

For the Apogee FR, the small ugly looking black box is a gem that you want to keep it. It is a simple RC splitter circuit that provides the right first order slope at the right crossover frequencies. That is the best solution. In the past I have been misled by people on forums on improvements offered by active crossovers. They are all wrong because either they have no good ears or they have systems with insufficient resolutions. So the lack a good reference to start with.

So my advice is if you want to preserve the life and soul of your sound, keep that simple passive crossover. I went one ahead further, I added that simple RC high and low pass circuits inside my preamp permanently and eliminated extra wiring, the gain switch on the high-pass of the passive crossover), and extra interconnect cabling and connectors. That gave me the biggest improvement in sound.

Hope that explains.

gallant_diva June 28, 2018 16:09

Owner

hello H_A, sorry for the late response.

I have not been very active here at audiogon lately for a few reason: One, too busy enjoying my system and there isn't much to improve. Second, started building a new media room.

gallant_diva June 28, 2018 15:56

Owner

Anthony: Thanks for the nice words. Yes this is a hobby of pursuit of perfection.

You made quite accurate observations. But the system also owes to you, because of your cables. Your cables are so good that I have not had the urge to replace them. You too were an asset to audio.

No system including mine is perfect. But mine is to a point (for the past several years) where it gives me a lot of listening pleasure every time I listen. I cannot think of ways of improving it, which itself is a good and bad thing. Sometimes I feel bored not because of the sound but because of not finding music to suit the mood. Despite 1000s of CDs 100s of LPs I continue to seek new music.

I am glad the suggested diffusers are working for you. Your room and speaker together are "just one entity"

gallant_diva January 01, 2018 15:46

Owner

robfrost1, you are welcome to come visit. How do we contact each other?

gallant_diva January 01, 2018 15:37

Owner

I said you are welcome to listen at my place. How do I contact you?

gallant_diva August 21, 2017 22:27

Owner

Hi DL, thanks. My current room is built according to the Golden Ratio but I am not so certain if there is a scientific evidence behind it. When I built the current room I had to pick a ratio so I just picked it. My new room is still being debated with the designer and it may be wider than the Golden Ratio and probably I do not care so much about that. The reason being audiophile believe lot of unsubstantiated notions. One reason my sound is so great is to actually *not* follow what I call "audio dogmas" LOL.

Do these resonators also fall under that category?

You are welcome to drop by for a listen. Bring your CDs.

gallant_diva August 21, 2017 20:50

Owner

More on the new room. Mike Levine: Thanks for the phone chat and suggestions on building the new room.

Mike: It seems we both think similar in many ways with regard to the room.

One, I am not a fan of bass traps or absorbers. Both in my experience destroy musicality from sound and make it very analytical.

Audiophile start with pseudo-science and believe in room response (comb effect, reflection, standing waves) and then do room treatment

assuming that all science is taken care of without scientifically reconfirming the results. This is called half science which is worse than science.

Second, I am a believer in diffusion, just like you are. You have used some absorbing fabric which makes sense given than your tweeter is a bit on the hot side.

In my new room, I will use both science and listening by ear.

My goals in building the new room are

No absorption and no leaking
Maximum rigidity for the finest bass one can imagine
No ringing
Simplicity
Bare walls which I can tweak later

My room is gonna be 28 by 19 roughly and all 6 walls will be made of concrete to start with. I want to have zero bass loss which is so typical in American homes made with studs, insulation and sheetrock. When you have no absorption you may get reflections which can be tamed. So I rather have the latter than the former.

After the room is built up I will experiment with the room response at the listening seat and also use extensive diffusion to improve reflections and peaks.

Even some diffusors can act as suckers of music (because some of them will also absorb, in particular upper midrange and lower highs). May be some of the reported treatments using absorbers and bass traps work for folks with dynamic speakers but in my case, with dipole planar speakers, the game is very different. Over the years I noted that I get the best sound when the front wall is flat (except for the skyline diffusor in the middle which improves imaging).

Sides walls sound best when treated with not so deep diffusors. I once built up 6-8 inches diffusors made of wood, following long discussions with a “knowledgeable guy” I made about 8 diffusors, each 1’ by 3’ and placed them on the sides. To my horror, the sound lost its magical touch and become boringly analytical. After than 1-2 inches Auralex metro diffusors have worked fine for me. But they are no longer made. I will try your T-fusors.

gallant_diva August 21, 2017 00:22

Owner

Thank you Zephyr24069 for the compliments.

In audio, listening, and not the looks (not even how logical and impressive the posts and comments are) is what matters. In my hobby, I only aim for the sound quality only. The system has hit the limit of sound quality and very little improvements are possible if any. I just enjoy the music although I am experimenting with some speaker cables.

I am also working on the design of a new media room. When I have some progress, I will post some information here.

gallant_diva March 15, 2017 21:12

Owner

Yes I am in the DFW area. Thank you for your compliments.

gallant_diva June 13, 2016 03:00

Owner

Thank you kmccarty for the kind words. The system is to the a point of saturation that I do not know what to improve I had lost a close audio friend (Paul Weitzel) who was like my brother, so I am still trying to come to grips with that loss.

gallant_diva June 03, 2016 02:58

Owner

This is with my deepest sorrow to report that my beloved friend in audio Paul Weitzel of Tube Research Lab has died. I am devastated and crying hard.

gallant_diva February 25, 2016 17:17

Owner

This is Ivan Lee's room in Hong Kong. Ivan is the guru who taught me about speaker placement, with out-of-the-box thinking.

His was a Maggies based system driven with Conrad Johnson, and one of the best I have ever heard.

Ivan Lee room

gallant_diva August 13, 2015 04:12

Owner

lissner, the true potential of Apogees can only be realized with proper speaker placement such as the one described by me. Otherwise, you are only getting half of the listening pleasure. It is like driving a Ferrari as a utility truck and enjoying its trucking capability.

With soundstage synchronization, you get a totally holographic sound with a huge soundstage. The amazing thing is that larger the soundstage, the tighter the imaging, and more precise the instrument placement in the 3D space. Imagine box speaker have only left and right to be properly aligned for a good stereo effect. As Doug Sax's says on his test CD "this is left channel", "this is the right channel", "this is in-phase, and my voice should be heard tightly focused between the two speakers" and then "this is out of phase, my voice should have no appearance and it should sound like it is coming from all over the room".
The wider the out of phase sound, the more focused the in-phase sound.

In the same way (although not exactly), planar speakers not only have to alighn both right and left channels but also the front and back waves. With my current setup, my central image is so precise, I feel I can stand up from the listening seat and touch it and measure the back of the image to the front wall with a measuring tape.

When I move forward all way to the front wall and turn around to face my listening standing, the sound image is very interestingly on the rear wall, actually the singer seems to be sitting on my listening chair...wow. like a ghost. When I stand to the right wall facing the left wall, the image is on the left wall and vice versa. When I am standing in the middle of the room between the two speakers, the sound is everywhere whichever direction I turn. Thus, the sound stage is all around in an enveloping fashion. The converse effect of that is when I go back to my listening seat, the images of different instruments are tightly focused, in the center, behind the speakers, front of the speakers, left wall, right wall, and sometimes even on my back. You can also get some such effects with box speaker but not quite like the planar speakers do. That is real amazing stuff. On top of that add the glorious midranges, the finest highs and most authentic bass of the Apogee Fullrange in a coherent manner, and it is a thrill, in fact every time it gives me goose bumps. Now that is call audio heaven :):)

gallant_diva August 13, 2015 04:07

Owner

Winston Ma room

In the third picture, Pault Weitzel of Tube Research Labs is also sitting there with Winston.

I have visited this room and also Mike Lavigne's (twice) and both are terrific

gallant_diva August 13, 2015 03:46

Owner

Mike Lavigne room

gallant_diva August 13, 2015 03:42

Owner

Agear, thanks for the support. You attended a good school. My Alma matter is Syracuse University. Like VA, SU is a gorgeous campus.

The Apogees are n fact more room sensitive than box speakers because you have tame both the front and back waves and then synchronize them.

gallant_diva August 12, 2015 21:27

Owner

The link to my planar speaker placement article is here
planar speaker placement by GD

gallant_diva August 12, 2015 03:44

Owner

lissner, I see you are a dedicated audiophile. That is great :) may I know the dimensions of your room?

gallant_diva August 12, 2015 03:40

Owner

Agear, I plan to build the most rigid room and then tame it down. I am not someone who will copy or hire someone to do it. Instead, I like to do things myself, hear and experiment and modify until I am fully satisfied. Nor am I going to believe everything online, major of the information is incorrect anyway, which I call information toxicity.

For now the plan is to have 28 by 17.3 room. I am not going for the hologram that Cardas describes because planar speakers are different than the box speakers. Thus, his speaker placement is not applicable. I don't claim to know everything about Apogee speakers but I know enough to squeeze the maximum performance out of them.... for my taste at least. The room is going to be built not just for audio but for Apogee fullrange speakers as well.

For power, I plan to have, just like what I have now, several dedicated 20-30 amp outlets, for both 110v and 220v
lines spread across the room, and separated from other appliances.

gallant_diva August 11, 2015 20:48

Owner

lissnr:

Have you read my article on planar speaker placement?

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?cspkr&1279867740

gallant_diva August 11, 2015 14:35

Owner

Also, mine will be an audio room which could also do home theater, and not vice versa. Two different things. My passion is pure audio.

gallant_diva August 10, 2015 21:06

Owner

The four best rooms that I have heard are(in no particular order), Mike Levine's room, Winston Ma's room, Ivan Lee's room (in Hong Kong), and my own.

My room was also built for audio, using double sheetrock, sound blocking board, AC channels, and then walls sealed and pumped with fiber glass.

Agear, rubybookie's thread describes his room as: "The wall construction is 12" thick ,made up of a double wall of 2x4 studs at 16 oc with the studs staggered ,insulation (rock wool), t&g 3/4 plywood glued and screwed, then the drywall is glued with a v notch trowel. " It is still using woods. I intended to go to the ultimate level of having no wood at all except the ceiling. I want to make the most solid and yet simple room, where I can still attach material on the wall such as diffusors to tame the mids and highs but bass without compromise will only come with all four concrete walls.

gallant_diva August 10, 2015 21:04

Owner

Thanks Agear. My current room is exactly what Cardas is suggesting, i.e., 26 by 16, and the ceiling slants from 12 to 9 feet. In addition, I have no two walls which are exactly parallel. I had this room built 10 years ago. The new room is also going to follow the 1.618 ration room. The new room is going to be 28 x 17.4 and the ceiling will be slanting as well. I am thinking of all walls made of concrete blocks.

gallant_diva August 10, 2015 14:44

Owner

Thanks Bdp24

gallant_diva August 10, 2015 14:40

Owner

Agear, Floyd Toole's thread is too long. I could not figure his room dimensions. Do you know? And may I know your room dimensions? thanks

gallant_diva August 09, 2015 15:42

Owner

Mike, thanks a lot. Will talk with you here online and may be also on phone someday. May I know the dimensions of your room, L,W,H?

gallant_diva August 09, 2015 15:41

Owner

But I still find the KT90 to better than both the KT120 and 150. I feel I am only one standing on a deserted island with a big sign dug in the ground (for patrolling planes to see), "KT90 sounds better" while most people are raving about the KT150. I hated its sound even though I got "more" bass and probably more power. I am not certain if I found the power to be "more" in my system because I already have a lot of power. Also, my bass is already very powerful. Unlike other people, I hear things differently in my system which I dare to say is because I have more revealing system.

I am curious about your comparison of KT90 with KT150 if you could shed some more light in that please. Interesting, if I have to describe the sounds of the three tubes, I would say they sound similar to their shapes: The Kt90 is straight, extended at the top and bottom and the same in the middle. The KT120 is thicker in bass and a bit less extended at the top, and the KT150 is a bit more thicker and fatter (in bass). That thickness in my system is taking away all the three dimensionality off and collapsing the soundstage, which I love so dearly.

I have given off my KT150s to another friend who owns TRL GT400. I want him to burn them in for an extended period of time. May be I will take them back and try them on again after their good burn in. May be they will sound better then but for now, I am not letting any tube other than KT90 come in my GT800 driving my bass. I do have a mixture of KT90 and KT88 (the KT88 has a sweeter midrange) in the GT400 which is driving my mid/highs.

Some people may find that contradictory that if I am praising about the KT90 for their highs why am I using them in the bass amp and why I cannot get "more" bass in the bass amp by using KT150. And likewise, why do I have some KT88s in the mid/high am if I think Kt90 has better highs. My answer has always been that a good highs (tweeter and amp driving the highs) sound makes the bass better. Similarly, I have mixed some KT88s and KT90 in the GT400 driving the mid/high drivers to add some midrange flavor. It is very much like cooking a dish so I have added some spices to my taste but the KT150 is just too salty and is taking away the flavor.

gallant_diva August 09, 2015 15:40

Owner

I have an announcement to make, sharing a good news with all audio friends: I am going to build a new media room, all from scratch. It will be 28x17 in size, about 12 feet high ceiling. I have no unlimited budget as our friend Mike does :), so the objectives are: SSB (Simple. Solid, Budgeted). Thus the start will be a solid room with good topology. The room will allow additions (such as diffusors -- I don't like absorbers or bass traps). It will have slanted ceiling, so parallel walls, and concrete blocks based walls, no windows, one door, and rock bottom floor.
All power cabling in underground pipes.

Will take advice and opinions including from Mike Levine and Agear.

gallant_diva August 04, 2015 17:08

Owner

Lissnr:

Good to hear back from you. With regard to the tubes, Paul think KT150 is better but I follow my own ears so Paul and I disagree. The thing is that my system is so ruthlessness revealing and ruthlessly optimized that any pin drop alerts me immediately. Tubes are a big big factor because they have their own sound. KT150 has more power but it gives me a collapsed soundstage. As I said in my experience KT90 is better than KT120 and KT120 is better than KT150. Surprise?
People will disagree? Sure, they can.

The sound of KT90 is just awesome and I intend to keep it. Now KT88 is another beast. It has much different sound than the KT90/120/150 cluster. KT88 has sweater and may be better midrange but its highs and bass are not as impressive as that of the KT90, and I talking about all in my system. Since I must and I do bi-amp my system, my TRL GT-800 t the bass is all using KT-90s, while the GT-400 is driving the mid/highs and has a combination of KT88 and KT90.

One can continue to experiment with a combination of KT88 and KT90. I can allow some KT120s but KT150? Nah.
So I am curious to hear your opinion on the tubes.

gallant_diva July 29, 2015 21:41

Owner

lissnr: You get to the bottom of the matter quicker than most audiophiles do. You are right about my approach to putting the crossover inside my pre-amp. The major improvement should come from removing the gain switch. Basically, the Apogee Fullrange crossover (I think you already know it so I mention it for other readers) is a genius design because of its simplicity (and I firmly believe in the old audio principle of less is more in aduio). This was the work of art by Leo Spiegel, the retired NASA engineer, who was no less than a genius. It was he who conceived the whole Apogee ribbon concept (ribbon based speakers for midrange and tweeter existed prior to that but not for the bass), which made a tremendous contribution to high-end audio -- compare that with Bose, huh. Even after 30 plus years, Apogee speakers stand head and shoulder above many top end speakers costing $100k plus. For me (and yes I may be biased) this is the best speaker and I would not trade it against any speaker at any price. The only dynamic speaker which impressed me and made me think of "upgrading" was the Avalon Sentinel. But again, the Avalon may generate more dynamics but it cannot beat the big Apogee in 3D soundstage, imaging, sweetness, and coherence. So I gave up the idea even though I had a chance to purchase the big Avalon at a good price ( I have listened to and owned smaller Avalons). The Avalon Sentinel looks very pretty though, I must admit. But the thing is every time I listen to my Apogee-based system, I hear myself saying "ahh". I do not think the Avalon can make me do that every time.

Now back to the Apogee design. So Leo, the genius, conceived everything from scratch (a far cry from many "technicians" who have tried to improve the Apogee design and failed even in that effort). The Apogee Fullrange was designed with no compromise unlike the later speakers, each of which was a compromise (e.g. placing kapton behind the midrange ribbons). It required two amps and the simple but great idea of a passive line-level crossover works wonderfully well. I have never been in favor of Active crossovers. They make the sound analytical and kill the purity of the signal. It is like buying a diamond and covering it with a fine see through fabric. The source has to be as pure as possible. By removing the switch I am expecting a big improvement. The crossover is essential as the speaker cannot work with one amp. I know the resistor value already. The other thing si loading resistors which must match the input impedance of the amps. Mine are already optimized. I also get rid of the tin box (which can act as a filter) and extra connectors. I do plan to leave the original output at the pre-amp, to be used as an optional comparison. Hence the two additional outputs will be low and high. I am also going to install the original caps first and will experiment with Jupiters, Dueland, or even Mundorfs. These are lien level caps and hence very small values. So we will revisit the cap issue again.

I have spoken to Paul about this but these are my own ideas. I will work with David, another friend who is pretty artistic and has all the tools for making holes and installing connectors.

More later. I am curious to know of your impression of KT150. I simply dont like them and prefer the KT90.

gallant_diva July 27, 2015 21:49

Owner

Agear Lissnr has not only good ears but also a good head between them. He gets to the point quickly. I will respond to his last post

gallant_diva July 23, 2015 16:56

Owner

Agear: Sorry for the late reply. I have not heard Analysis Audio speaker except the smallest one and even that was a short encounter. So I have no positive or negative opinion about the, I like the panel speakers tough. I think Maggies are great speakers although their midrange will never come close to that of the Apogees.

gallant_diva July 21, 2015 22:06

Owner

Ryriken66: The Minors are a great speaker for their price. And they have the same characteristics of the Major but with smaller sound and smaller soundstage. But musically, they are gorgeous. They also look nice. What color do you have?

For placement they should be on stands, the Minors come with their own stands, I think). You will need very little toe-in, like 1/2" to 1", but no tilt is needed. The distance between them can be more than 6'. Experiment with that and see if you can try up to 7'. The wide they are, more stereo effect and wider the soundstage, until the central image collapse. They can sound a bit bright if they are too close, especially with solid state amps. The distance from the wall, you can experiment too but in 11x12 you may not have much freedom to move them forward.

gallant_diva July 20, 2015 22:46

Owner

Knghifi:

The amps have no electronic hiss. Sometimes some tube connection can make a noise but rarely, and that means you just have to clean the tube pin or the socket. I do have some mechanical hum coming out of the transformer of the GT800 but it is an easy fix. Basically, you have to insert damping material (like the sheet that goes on house roofs). I have purchased that but have been lazy installing it inside the transformer canister. It is not loud to be a distraction and may be that is why I have ignored it.

gallant_diva July 20, 2015 22:37

Owner

Hello lissnr:

Thanks for writing back again. I like your deep insight. We can learn from each other.

I have the Duelands and I am in the process of buying the Jupiters and I will try them one by one. But I have a higher priority project at hand first. You know the Apogee Fullrange has a passive line level controller (between the apre-amp and amp). I am trying to put that crossover insidet the Dude preamp to eliminate the extra cabling and RCA plugs and most importantly the gain switch on the crossover box. That should give me good improvement as the lien level signal is so weak it has to be preserved as much as possible and be free of unnecessary evils like cables and connections. So I am working on that for now. Once I am done, I will probably try the Duelands in the Dude preamp.

My caps in the speaker level crossover are Mundorfs Silver and Oil. And I like them a lot. Before that I tried the regular Mundorf's (cheaper ones) and they were so bad I actually throw them out in the trash. I am not sure if I want to try the Duelands because they are so expensive and I am not sure if they are over hyped (although the hype about them seem to be evaporating).

I am not someone who will try things based on hype. My system *for me* is like a precise physics lab. Any subtle change I can perceive easily and ultimately I decide what to try and what to keep on. The only problem is the sound is so good that it is unlikely any major part will change. So to satisfy my itch, I can only temper with minor tweaks and minor parts improvement and the chances of that change becoming permanent is rather low.

About the power tubes,, I agree, I also found the EL34 to be the sweetest tube in midrange. I have owned the Audio Valve monoblocks which are pretty good but they are not up to the TRL GT-800 or even 200 -- but then nothing is.
Nevertheless I like the sound of EL34 very much.

The same goes for the 300B but that is another whole world. The 300B's however will need very different speakers than Apogees.

I agree with your on the amp/tube combo. I too have owned big VTLs and Jadis and listened to Conrad Johnsons. The amps have their own characteristics which work in combination with the tube.

About the KT88/KT90/KT150 in TRL amps, the KT90 and KT120 are very similar. the KT88 has different sound as it emphasizes the midrange. I prefer KT90 over other tubes although Paul is very adamant on KT150. But it is my ear and my taste. I have not liked the KT150 at all. It is punchier and more powerful but it collapse all of my 3D soundstage. It may not be a horrible things in other systems because I am not sure how 3D sound they are getting but it disappears in my system. It is like a whole parameter in a mathematical formula disappearing --- remember the physics lab analogy.

I looked at your system and I noticed that you too have your Apogee a few feet from the wall behind them. You can try placing them in the middle of the room. Search for my article on Planar speaker placement. Most Apogee owners are not getting the full potential out of their speakers. I am also not a fan of obsorbers. They suck the life out of music. You are better of trying the Auralax diffusors on the side wall. Having foam diffusors behind the speaker wall will improve the midrange imaging but they absorb the bass punch. You can make your own diffusors out of wood for the wall behind the speaker. You will also get a better sound if the speakers were not tilted back but straight. Place them on a some higher platform like a stone slab. Some friendly suggestions.

gallant_diva July 18, 2015 15:59

Owner

lissur: I am sorry for the late reply. I also thank you for your kind words. But let me say this, your is one of the most knowledgeable posts I have seen in years. You know what you talking about and you have the knowledge. I am tired of reading from audiophiles who post for the sake of it and for many other reasons.

I am not a person who will go by the hype, no matter how big. I did buy the Duelands caps for my Dude but never felt the motivation to install them and also did not believe the hype about them. You describe the Jupiter vs Dueland comparison very succinctly. I appreciate that. I am inclined to follo the path you are suggesting. But I might try the jupiters and then Duelands. The thing is that I have such a precise system that the effect of any tiny change that I make. This is unlike many other people's systems where equipment is already a compromise and any change will be ...well,... a change, which depending upon someone's mood may be perceived as positive or negative.

I see you have the Duettas with GT-200. That would make a terrific combination especially with the Dude.

I am usually a hype buster. So let me just bust one more current hype on the KT150 tube. I hate their sound.
I love the KT90, then the KT120, but no room for the KT150. The sound of the KT150 is flat and one dimensional.
I tried them twice just to give them benefit of the doubt. But no, it just aint my cup of tea. Sorry to bust the bubble of so many people who are
Raving about it.

I will also bust the Dueland vs Jupiter Bubble. I am just busy with other stuff but will try both caps on no too far in the future.

gallant_diva June 25, 2015 23:37

Owner

Ptmconsulting: how is your recent experience with the caps?
I bought the Duelands for my Dude but never installed them.
I wonder if I should still try them or go for the Jupiters.

gallant_diva May 04, 2015 20:49

Owner

Booboobaer: Are the Martin logans an improvement over the the JM Lab?

gallant_diva May 03, 2015 20:09

Owner

Lloydelee21: Sorry for my late reply. I have listened to many big Wilson speakers but frankly have never been impressed. And one of the main reasons is their boomy artificial bass. They put up a good show for home theatre but lack musicality. It is also all about balance. The reasons I think the big Apogee is a superior speaker is the balance and the authentic bass. Some people perceive amount of bass as measure -- which is wrong because you could just do that by adding big fat subs. It impresses for a few times and after that you lose interest and then if you got big pocket, you start getting the itch for more expensive speakers like Magico.

In the case of Apogee, there is no such itch -- which is good and and bad, depending upon on your perspective because having some itch is also important in this hobby.

The bass of the big Apogee is full and ripe. Initially it was not optimal but I added a specialized transformer in my amp to drive the bass panel without its autoformer. After that the bass slammed became heavier. The speaker goes up to 30 Hz and shakes up the room easily. I have experimental with adding subs just to overcome the itch but I prefer the sound without the subs. In fact, at times the Apogee bass is so empowering that it feels subs are running even when they are not.

I also do not like the bass from woofers bigger than 10" because their mass is just hard to stop once it they start moving the air. I have listened to some good bass from woofer speakers but every time it was 10" or smaller cone.
Once I was with friends at a dealer in Hong Kong. We listened to the big Kharma $250,000 speaker driven by equally expensive electronics. The abrasive midrange combined with big fat boomy bass hitting my shins was simply unbearing.

I am also a fan of 2-way but not 3-way speakers when it comes to dynamic speakers....but it is all personal preference, you know.

gallant_diva May 03, 2015 19:43

Owner

Team212: How is your adventure with the cartridge setup going?

gallant_diva May 03, 2015 17:49

Owner

Zephyr24069: Greenville, SC is a beautiful place. I have been there once.

gallant_diva May 03, 2015 17:47

Owner

Agear:

Plans for fund generated? good questions. Yes, pay audiogon sales fee.

I have heard of Analysis Audio but not heard them. What about them? What are you latest caps in the Dude?

gallant_diva May 01, 2015 04:43

Owner

Arborsliving: Thank you for the compliments. You too have an open invitation for a listen. With regard to the TRP pre-amp, I think the latter ones such as the Dude are better than the older models because of their improved power supplies.

gallant_diva April 30, 2015 15:33

Owner

Zephyr24069: Thanks for the kind words. Not sure where you live. But if you can, you are welcome to come and listen.

gallant_diva April 30, 2015 15:01

Owner

Sorry all friends for my absence. Have been busy with other stuff in life. And the Audio? The audio is all alive and well. The sound is so good that I have hot the wall. Not sure what to improve....may be power chords, or play with different tubes.

Will respond to the unanswered comments above. Thank you.

gallant_diva April 27, 2015 02:58

Owner

Sorry guys for my absence....I am just too busy enojoying my system....no time to think of improvements.

Chadeffect: can you post your recent findings on caps?

gallant_diva June 14, 2014 05:35

Owner

Chadeffect, first of all you are welcome to visit me and listn to my system. Second, I enjoy doing constructive debate with you.

You mentioned that Graz ribbons were better. See, that is the point I tried to make. You compared old ribbons with new ribbons, Obviously the new would be better (because of new constructions primarily). You can only compare original and updated ribbons if you install new original and new updated and then compare them. By the way I have both original and Graz ribbons. The main system the one posted here has all Graz ribbons, bottom to top.

Also, there is no such thing as "lighter" ribbons being better. How about we translate the mass of the ribbon into a mathematically equation and equate it sound quality. Then apply the limiting factor of ribbons mass. If lighter is better then more lighter and lighter would yield better sound? no it won't (because mathematically near zero mass would sound the best). Hence, lower mass does not yield to better sound but there is an optimal weight which must oscillate between a certain magnetic force of he magnet to perform its best (with minimum distortion). I have tried lighter ribbons (remember my home is another Apogee lab), and the theory of lighter ribbons did not hold. I ended up throwing away some lighter ribbons. But hey, I am not here to win an argument, draw your own conclusions. Most people's systems do not have enough resolution to discern the difference.

you said:

But I also believe that if you choose wisely and understand what makes a product tick you can push many products to the side and avoid disappointment and time wasting.

Well, yes, that is why I have the TRL GT-800 and GT-400, and the DUDE preamp and TRL moded Sony CD player after having tried over 100 major products. I have no interests in even trying any amp, CD player or preamp. Absolutely no interest.

Most audiophile chase their tail. I like your women analogy and I can only dream I could try but then I would be an idiot to settle down :)

So when you coming to Dallas?

gallant_diva March 02, 2014 18:34

Owner

Chadeffect, you said,

I have found the Apogee to be the best I have heard with possible exception of the big sound lab ESL. But Apogees especially if brought up to date with latest ribbons and components are wonderful.

Now which Apogee are we talking about here? If you mean the Duetta or Diva, then mmmmm. But if you are talking about the Apogee Fullrange, then it is a different story. Overall the big Apogee comes close to being an ultimate speaker. I have heard some good sounds from the Duetta and Diva, but most owners of these speakers have incorrectly placed their speakers.

Now, you mentioned the update to the latest ribbons,... huh. Don't believe the hearsay or hype of "latest" and do not confuse "latest" with "new". These are two different things.

Tell you two things that I have observed in my 20 plus years of this hobby, indicating what a strange specie audiophiles are:

First, Manufacturers will always claim latest is better and audiophiles will believe that. Magazines do the same thing, always claiming the new speaker and new amp is and upgrade. Well, if that is the case, sound quality should have been improving at a staggering rate and eventually going out of the curve scale and out of the roof. But it has not!!! Hence the claims of upgrade and latest are false more often than not. It reminds of the movie "A Beautiful Mind" the story of John Nash, a Nobel laureate economist. During the movie, based on his real life story, Nash is suffering from schizophrenia due to which he hallucinates that there is a little girl around him often advising him about his judgments. He listens to her advice carefully. In fact she is not real and is only his imagination. Finally, after years, he realizes that the girl has never grown to become an adult and therefore must not be real.
The audiophile's perception that every latest upgrade is an improvement is no more than a similar (and wishful) imagination (and manufactures feast upon it). Mind you, I am not pointing at you, just sharing the thought.

It also reminds me of a mate that I had at my high school. He was naughty and sometime would do practical jokes. Sometimes, he would stand under a tree near a street and start yelling "come down" while looking up at the tree as if someone was hiding in the tree. Slowly he would gather the attention of some passing by pedestrians. Some of them would stop and start looking up inside the tree, believing that someone must be hiding there. The kid would then slip away in laughter. I observed the same phenomenon here, where one guy would just keep posting relentlessly about a certain amp (which is in fact crap). After years of posting bogus claims, some (in fact quite a few) people became buyers of this amp. hahahaha

Second, more than 90% of Apogee owners are clueless about their speaker placement. I tried to preach to some of them but over 90 of them are not willing to even try moving their speakers. Out of those, over 90%, however, do not mind spending thousands of bucks on cables and other tweaks. Then over 90% of those regret making those purchases. Yet, over 90% of them are likely to repeat the mistake..and it just goes on and on. Strange but interesting.

gallant_diva March 02, 2014 06:52

Owner

agear, you asking me to post my whole "audio biography" here :) I will post soon ....just the summary.

gallant_diva February 23, 2014 19:05

Owner

chadeffect, you and I can have long productive discussions. You are an extremist :-) lol, you gone from high-power amp/low efficiency speakers to low power amp/high efficiency speaker, which I call the dark side of audio in Jedi language :)

I have heart your speakers but only the Duo not the trio and they were damn good in the mid/highs. So I guess you must be happy with what you have but I just wanna say one thing. I had believed in the planar speakers but for a certain period of time was not getting good sound out of them because I was doing wrong experiments following some poor online advice from Apogee forums. But I hanged in there until I found the right combination of source/pre-amp and amps. Finally, the speaker placement was the ultimate lesson that came largely through a Chinese audiophile and then some of my experimentation.

About 4 years ago, I realized was done with the sound, and that is why I have been stable although the fun continues by tweaking here and there.

BTW, I love Maggies too. Though not as good as the Apogees (specially in the mids), they are fantastic and I would take them anytime over many $150k box speakers. Some of the best sound I have from other people's systems was from the Maggies.

gallant_diva February 23, 2014 19:03

Owner

Grannyring, yes, I agree all DUDES are special. I got your message. I will email you. I traveling last 2-3 days. Will reply soon.... and thank you.

gallant_diva February 23, 2014 18:46

Owner

charles1dad "You've found such joy with a 2 watt Japanese ultra simple amplifier. "

Charles, it is the price per watt, not the number of watts that matters :)

gallant_diva February 23, 2014 18:41

Owner

grannying: What is special about your DUDE and what ideas did you want to share? I am thinking of putting my line level crossover inside my DUDE.

gallant_diva February 20, 2014 04:22

Owner

Charles: yes that is true. The only other Apogee which raises its head against the FR is the smaller Stage. This small baby is one heck of a speaker. I would say it is marvelous gem and highly underrated. I love it. See my comments on "system edited" and see the picture of the stacked Stages.

I sold one pair and kept the other which I will keep it forever.

gallant_diva February 19, 2014 19:37

Owner

System edited: Added a picture of Stacked Apogee Stages that I call Apogee Butterfly. I like the sound of the Stage very much and on the grounds of stacked Quads, I attempted to stacked the Stages. The experiment did yield some interesting results but I decided not to pursue it further for two reasons: One, in my experiments I could not perfectly align them. For perfect alignment they needed a good frame, which is a doable project. Second, the bass was not as powerful as the Fullrange. So I abandoned the project but I guess I made a contribution to audio by being the first to stack these speakers :) I plan to stack the Fullranges also, if I get a larger room.

gallant_diva February 19, 2014 19:33

Owner

Ptmconsulting: The FR has a simpler and smaller circuit with few caps and no inductor. The bass and mid have no passive components. So the circuit is only for the tweeter. See my reply to Charles1dad.

However, the ones in the Duetta and Diva are essential. Trust me I have driven these speakers naked with powered line level crossovers and they do not sound good (except sometimes giving a wrong initial impression). Audio designs are trade-offs and the passive crossovers in Apogees are good trade-offs.

gallant_diva February 19, 2014 03:43

Owner

charles1dad, it depends which Apogee you are talking about. The Scintilla, Diva, Duetta, Stage, and FR all have either own crossover, supposed matched to their ribbon characteristics including impedance.

The FR has a line level crossover from which the bass signal is split from the MR/TW signal. The low and mid/high signals are fed to different amps. The bass amp drives the bass woofer panel, with an optional transformer (which I have removed because Paul installed a custom transformer in the GT-800 amp to match the 1.9 ohm impedance of the woofer).

The mid/high signal is spilt through a passive speaker level crossover. The mid signal drives midrange range ribbon via a mandatory step up transfoemr. I have an optional large cap (outside its crossover point) installed in series to avoid the ribbon flutter.

The TW signal split from the mid feeds the tweeter ribbons via a high-pass crossover (which can be upgraded with Dueland caps).

I am also thinking of upgrading my passive line level crossover with Dueland or Rikes. In fact, I am thinking of put that simple circuit inside my DUDE preamp.

Why Apogee use large caps? Simple math:

C = 1/ (2 * f* pi * R) in its crude form

gallant_diva February 19, 2014 03:34

Owner

Chadeffect: agreed, I would try something if it improves my sound and if I can afford it, not based on value for money.
One should give up this hobby if price-performance ratio is a concern as that curve is definitely not linear.

My style is not to brag but I changed components for 17-18 years until my present combination, which is unlikely to change because there isn't a better component. Cables, tubes, caps and other minor upgrades will continue and they are fun. The sound is so good that every time I listen I have audio orgasm (as you put it).

Since, I have the Dueland caps for my DUDE preamp, I will install them and hear the difference. I am also going to try your recommended Rike caps and the Jupiters recommended by others. If I hear major improvement (making the great system greater), I will consider upgrading my crossover.

Speaking of the bypass, I have V-caps as bypass caps to my Mundorfs SO, and frankly I did not hear any of their effect, positive or negative.

gallant_diva February 19, 2014 03:17

Owner

Chadeffect: The Duetta and Diva are not in the league of the Apogee FR, not even close. The FR is a speaker without compromises and it is sad (for audio hobby) that they were never reviewed. The Duetta sig and Diva received rave reviews and rightly so but the FR was never reviewed, not that I personally care. In fact none of my equipment item has been reviewed! Makes my proud :)

But yes the caps are expensive and that the original caps used in Apogees were not great. But perhaps they were the best value for money in those times.

gallant_diva February 19, 2014 03:07

Owner

Agear:

You have an open invitation to visit me.

In fact all those posting here in caps topic have open invitation.

Agear: I am a believer in damping and it may be a major contributor to the Dueland sound.

gallant_diva February 19, 2014 03:00

Owner

Lissnr: Thanks for sharing words of wisdom. I like your system.

gallant_diva February 19, 2014 02:57

Owner

Folks:

We are having a great discussion. I did not get a chance to look at all the posts but I will reply as much as I can soon.

I have plans to upgrade my DUDE with the Duelands and even more. Will post details soon.

Keep it up please :)

gallant_diva February 19, 2014 02:49

Owner

chadeffect: Value for money? no, I was not saying that. this is not a hobby with that parameter.I was saying for most die hard audiophile, the price tag often fools them into thinking that the more expensive the better automatically. I am not in that category though. If I put a $50 cable next to $5000, I will take the **one that sounds better** (including the possibly that I will pay $5000 if it is much better) unlike many people who will pick the $5000 one without thinking, and will assume the $50 is a piece of junk.

I have seen too many example of that, more expensive the cartridge, more better sounding to the audiophile ears. The same for $200,000 speakers, which are nothing but a wooden box, and some electronic junk and paper woofer. It is horrible how people perceive that to be a great sounding but if you put it next to a Mercedes, it looks like a joke.
Many of these speakers should cost no more than $10,000 per pair but then they would not hold any value to the audiophile with big pocket. What an irony but who am I to care, the audiophile is happy and manufacture is even more happy and probably deserves all those luxury boats and Ferraris.

gallant_diva February 16, 2014 17:30

Owner

Mabonn: How much is my electricity bill? Good question. First of all, I am a big supported of sustainability and hence a believer in economizing on electricity and cleaner energy. With that of my chest, I can tell you that I have not calculated but it can be done. The formula is roughly to calculate the watts which is voltage times current drawn. That is the power consumption but than the energy consumption will be power multiplied by the listening time (in a month). It is hard to know unless I punch cards and listening varies from month to month and season to season (also depending on the mood).

But I can tell you two things: One, my electricity bill is very higher in summer due to air conditioning even though I listen rarely in summer (either I am travelling or the room is too hot). In contrast, I listen quite frequently in winter and the bill is very reasonable.

Second, while advocating sustainability the way I justify the power consumption of my sound system is that it keeps my sanity -- in fact, keep the sanity is the whole idea behind this enjoyment. That way I contribute more to sustainability through other means :)

gallant_diva February 16, 2014 05:01

Owner

Grannyring, Ptmconsulting, and Chadeffect, I am curious as to what is inside the Dueland. Is there real substance that makes it better or is it the audiophile snake oil. You know how the die heard audiophile gets ready to empty wallet on $5000 dollar cable versus $50 cable even if the latter is the same but with a different colored jacket? I have seen too much hype and experience the truth behind these hypes myself. Another problem is that most people do not have very high resolution systems, so any change in a component sounds good to them initially. I am not suggesting you guys belong to that category and I certainly do not suggest $50 cable will be always better (a good be a good cable based on listening). But I am just curious as to what is inside the Dueland and what makes a a better cap.

gallant_diva February 16, 2014 04:52

Owner

Agear, sorry for my delayed response but I was terribly busy at work during the past week. I read your post with intrigue. Before I comment on the system did you say

"And yes, I will be looking you up if I am ever in Dallas for a conference...."

But that is where I have been living, .,...duh, where did you think I was living, In Chicago, next to that priest who has half a million dollar Magico speakers?

BTW, where do you live?

Who is Dale that you referring to?

Yes, I am focusing on analog source. I have a Scully which needs some work. I am hoping when Paul is here visiting me, he could the Scully tuned up and running.

Yes, I am a computer science and quite a digital person at work but I keep my work and hobbies separate because that is how I relax. I have not looked in the computer server as digital source but it is on my list of things to explore. I would like to know more about your DAC. You have some more pointers? What is your source for that DAC?

I am also planning of building some speaker cables.

gallant_diva February 16, 2014 04:46

Owner

Agear: Sorry for my late reply to your detailed message. I was terribly busy at work during the past week.

Yes, I am a computer and digital guy. But I keep my work completely separately from my hobby. Digital audio has not made much progress as we see the same amps, same speaker, and the same CD players. although digital video has made tremendous progress. I have been looking at some digital option or the computer-based source though but until I and completely aware of all the option, I am not gonna jump into it.

I have Scully Tape deck that needs some work and I am hoping when Paul visits me we can get that up and running.
I am expecting the Tape Deck to sound much better than Vinyl and CD. So I agree with you on that.

By the way, you said if I ever come to Dallas, I should try to meet you. Did I read that up correctly? hahahah, I have been in Dallas for 13 years, so what are you talking about? Where do you live by the way?

gallant_diva February 15, 2014 20:00

Owner

Grannyring: Thanks for the kind advice. I have the Duelands for the DUDE at hand and just waiting for some time slot out of my busy schedule to install them. As far as noise is concerned, my current sound is dead free of noise and it is at satisfying as it can get. Just wondering what further noise level can be reduced....hmmm...curious.

gallant_diva February 15, 2014 19:42

Owner

Zephyr24069: I got "Touch" by Yello. It is great, like all other Yello music, I love it, Thanks for the recommendation.

Here is one for you: The Flower of War Soundtrack. It is spectacular.

gallant_diva February 15, 2014 19:02

Owner

Richard (Klinerm): I am curious to know your room size. Also, if you see too much flutter in the midrange and tweeter, you can add a large cap (about 100-150 uf) in series between the amp and the speaker. That cap will be out of the frequency band of the Mid/tw and hence would not interfere with the crossover but fix the flutter problem.

gallant_diva February 15, 2014 18:41

Owner

Richard (Klinerm): Thanks for the invitation. I do not have plans to visit Charleston but might visit Greenville sometime in March. I guess it is a 3 hour drive from there so I might be able to find time. I am curious to hear the Scintilla with tubes. My Scintillas were driver by Musical Fidelity 1K monoblock amps, which Michael Fremer of Stereophile used to rave about and called his best amp. It is just a good amp with smooth sound and virtually unlimited power but the sound is pretty flat and boring. The MF 1K amp is nothing compared to the TRL GT400, let alone the GT-800. I wondered if this guy who wrote so many reviews had ever heard to a decent system.

Speaking of these stupid magazines (which I stopped reading 5 years ago), my depressed days in audio were when I had Apogee FR and 2 pairs of GT-400 and the sound was still not very musical. The reason, Stereophile rated A+ SONY SACD player, which is total digital crap. This all changed when Paul sent me his modified Sony DVP NS900V CD player (stock price only $400). I was also happy to et rid of my $13k Meridian Flagship CD player. Believe it or not after speakers, the next most important component in audio is your source, more so than the amp or pre-amp.

BTW, you also have the invitation if you are in DFW area.

gallant_diva February 09, 2014 07:32

Owner

Chadeffect: Thank for the input. You know I value your opinion. I would be curious about the Rike caps. I suppose I can get them from Mouser. However, I follow the audio commandment of making one change at a time. I have to first try the Duelands in the DUDE preamp, then I am going to try the Duelands in my passive speaker level crossover and may be then I can compare them with Rike.

My system is very revealing and it will quickly show me the characteristic of the caps change in any one component. Also, my ears are very tuned to the system and I can discern even if there is a fly sitting on a wire (although the room is usually super clean and a fly entering there is unlikely).

In the past I tried the regular Mundorf caps (at the recommendation of a trusted friend, whose name I won't reveal) in my speaker level crossover. But the sound was very disappointing even after the break in period. I was so relieved to hear the sound of the Mundorf Silver & Oil. The difference was huge. I ended up throughing away the regular Mundorfs.

How much difference did you feel between the Duelands and Mundorf SG in oil?

gallant_diva February 09, 2014 07:03

Owner

Knghifi: That means 60 caps for my GT-400 and GT-800, and ordering that would probably increasing the stock price of Dueland manufacturer, hahaha

Seriously, I can replace the caps in the amp myself without Paul's help.... by the way I have been once zapped by the GT-400 and probably would have permanently disappeared including from audiogon. Not Paul's fault but mine because I thought the caps must have been cold 2 days after shutting off them amp. But they still had 400 volts as I found out :) I should have discharged them. Luckily I only used my finger, not tongue to taste the cap.

At another time I had a runoff with the amp when I tried to solder something thinking the amp was off. This time the speaker yelled at me very loud.

gallant_diva February 09, 2014 06:48

Owner

Booboobaer: I am definitely gonna replace my DUDE caps with the duelands. In fact I got my Duelands a few months back but have not had the time to install them. Will do soon though. Could you be very specific please on the sonic differences. Thanks.

gallant_diva February 09, 2014 06:31

Owner

Klinerm: I have many stories of Apogees to tell (and they are real) because they connect with my own journey in audio.

Your Scintillas and my FR share many characteristics. They both use first order slopes which always sounds better than 2nd order slopes like the one used in the Diva. But I made these discoveries in a hard way. Following the ill advice of many non-experts (it is hard to tell who really knows the stuff) online, I have tampered with the crossover in many many ways, only to found myself going back to original Apogee specs. Of course, I improved upon the components. Online forums can be very misleading, just like everything else, so you have to make your choices carefully even if some people sound very convincing.

The Scintilla and FR also use pure ribbons, without the Kapton backing. Kapton backing was added to subsequent Apogees for increasing their impedance, and hence was a compromise.

The sound of the Kapton backed ribbon is like wearing a condemn, and the sound of pure ribbon... you know what I mean. More later, Apogees with Kapton back ribbon were improved. One example is the Stage which has special material etched to the ribbon but sounds great. The second example is the 5-trace ribbon in the Centaur Major/Minor and the Slant series -- I love their midrange and highs.

I also learned that equating a lighter ribbon to better sound is a myth. There is certain optimal weight of the ribbon that must vibrate between the ribbons without distortion, presumably mathematically determined by the strength of the magnetic field.

I also dislike active crossovers including the DAX but that is another story....some other time.

gallant_diva February 06, 2014 23:34

Owner

Agear: I have listened to, owned many many preamps, and have even had built one using a very special technique and extremely regulated power supply (named X-2 by Charlie). But I think the DUDE is best preamp that I have listened to and I would venture to say possibly the best that exists out there, regardless of the price. X-2 comes very close (and I love it dearly) and is marginally more transparent than the DUDE but the DUDE wins the contest overall.

gallant_diva February 05, 2014 16:21

Owner

Knghifi: My speaker level crossover is made up of Mundorf Silver in oil caps (I built it myself). I am also planning to try the Duelands in there. Upgrading the amps with Duelands is an expensive proposition and I am not sure if I can afford that. Paul is not coming to upgrade the amps.

gallant_diva February 05, 2014 16:15

Owner

Booboobaer: upgrading the DUDE caps is my next agenda.

gallant_diva February 05, 2014 16:14

Owner

Knghifi: Yes, Paul is planning to visit Texas at my invitation. The fist purpose is to eat some good Steaks here....he does not believe Texas has better steak than Washington, so I am gonna show him that we have better steaks. Second, he is going to listen to Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan's (NFAK) music. The last time Paul visited me, we played over 200 different kinds of music. But the one that hit Paul the hardest was that of NFAK. He was almost hypnotized by the music and did not speak for a few seconds, hahaha.

So we are gonna listen to NFAK, then Peter Gabriel and if we get time then Bach and others.

The third purpose is to make some addition to the DUDE. I have got the Duelands for the DUDE and can install them but Paul is going to make some additional changes including some crazy ones that I have conceived. For example, I am thinking of putting my passive line-level speaker crossover inside the DUDE, hence eliminating an extra box, cables and lousy switch.

Paul is also going to tune up my Scully Tape Deck.

We are planning the dates and logistics.

gallant_diva February 05, 2014 16:10

Owner

mapman, I like King Crimson too. My musical collection is pretty decent and spans many different genre. There are lots of music geniuses. It is just not fair to compare musician of different genre and then declare the one you like to be the "right" one. The comparison proposition is just laughable.

gallant_diva February 05, 2014 15:57

Owner

mapman: I extend the same invitation to you: If you are in Texas, let me know and we will arrange a listening session at my place.

gallant_diva February 04, 2014 17:11

Owner

Agear, thank you for the kind words. I know you got a Dude. But am curious what is your rest of the system.

If you are in Texas, let me know and we will arrange a listening session at my place.

gallant_diva February 04, 2014 17:10

Owner

System edited: More system description added

gallant_diva February 02, 2014 21:11

Owner

Schubert: I called both of them genius but it has no implication that I equate them, come on now. Also, I do not think name calling will make your case stronger because I have no objection to you or anyone calling someone genius or no genius. You are entitled to your opinion, as I said before.

gallant_diva February 02, 2014 20:52

Owner

Schubert: ok, agreed, so you do not have to throw away words like "ludicrous" if someone praises something, right :) You can also disagree but agree to disagree also especially when it is only matter of opinion.

In my book, both Bach and Peter Gabriel are geniuses because of their musical creativity (the latter contributed to music a great deal) -- and I do not care if anyone of them was nice. Claude Debussy was a genius too but was not nice. He preferred cats over people....so it has nothing to do with being nice. Also, I disagreed with you that no rocker is a genius.

gallant_diva February 02, 2014 17:53

Owner

System edited: I added some acknowledgements in the system description.

gallant_diva February 02, 2014 05:08

Owner

Richard: You are a brave man, driving your Scintilla with tubes only. Not many people I know who have that setup. To my knowledge, I am the only owner who is driving the Apogee Fullrange with all tubes. The CAT are good amps. Are they able to drive your one ohm load?

Yours is a great speaker, one of my favorites. I have owned 3 Scintillas in the past. It is a bit tricky speaker though because different Scintillas had different sounds. The 4 ohm version did not sound as great and even there were big variations within the one ohm version I suspect the older versions were better. The Scintillas is in a class of its own and I rank it much above the Diva (I have owned 4 Divas as well), although the latter became a reason for my picking up the funny moniker gallant_diva which does not make much sense but how does that matter :)

With regard to the comparison between the Scintilla and Fullrange, you might be interested in some background. The Fullrange itself is a misnomer because most Apogees are fullrange speaker. The history of Apogee goes back to the early 80s. Jason Bloom, an art and music/audio aficionado, had deep love for ribbon sound, which were already being used in tweeter forms in speakers. While chatting with his father-in-law, Leo Spiegel, a NASA space engineer, Jason wished how nice it would be to have a speaker made of all ribbon. Leo, an extremely creative man and with a plenty of hands-on engineering talent, told Jason that it was indeed possible and promised that he would build one for him. Leo design the Apogee Fullrange. Considering that it was built from scratch. it was indeed a master piece that took into account so many theoretical and practical parameters and engineering constraints. The passive crossover, distribution of frequencies across 3 drivers, and most importantly the flat all ribbon diaphragm for the bass panel were also design breakthrough that would be done still the same way after 30 plus years. Even the side wing of the speaker was a very smart design. On the Apogee forum, which was full of good points as well as rubbish, some people had removed the side wings claiming that it did not matter. But when I did the same I found out that bass had become so weak. So I put back on. Later I found Apogee had a patent on it because it reinforced the bass.

Apogee Acoustics was founded. The Apogee Fullrange (FR), the first ever apogee was right named the Apogee of Apogee. At the high-end audio show that year, the Apogee FR received the best sound at the show and a new era was born. Next, the Scintillas was built, then the Duetta, Diva, and so on. This series of products lasted for the next decade. But what happened was all subsequent products with the exception of the Scintilla, were a commercial commodity with lots of compromises. No Apogee speakers touches the FR because it is so complete and so without compromises. You asked me the differences between the Scintilla and FR. As I said the Scintilla is a great speaker (but only one kind out of the one ohm versions),but the difference is in almost every area of sound with the possible exception of the midrange quality (which is the same in both the speakers. The FR outperformance the Scintilla in terms of soundstage, bass quality and extension, imaging, precision. The FR is also effortless and can play large orchestral sound effortlessly. As Arthur Salvator of High-End Audio website states, all other Apogees were like toys in front of the FR. 10-12 years down the load , Apogee had to make new improvements. Then came the hybrid versions (I love the Centaur Major and Slant Series hybrids), and the Minigrand, Studio Grand and the Grand (on which Apogee spent a great deal of efforts). I have not heard the Grand but I doubt it has seamless integration of woofers with the rest of the speaker. Nevertheless, I should not pass judgment on that without hearing. But the woofer, panel integration was never there in the Minigrand and Studio Grand.

The only later Apogee that challenges the FR is believe it or not the underrated Stage. It is a marvelous small speaker ( I own a pair and would keep them forever) that has a midrange quality which is even slightly better than the FR. However, the Stage does not have the full spectrum sound and cannot play big. I love it though. The FR has got everything in its arsenal including powerful bass (again Arthur Salvator describes its mid bass as the best bass out of any speakers he has heard), mid and highs. Its imaging is pinpointed and soundstage huge, balance perfect, transparency astonishing, and resolution maximum.

Now, these were the raw potential. Apogee like Maggies is a flat panel speakers and can only sound good if the owner has the ability to experiment with amps, crossover, and placement. I have wrestled with this speaker for a decade. Only with tremendous and relentless experimentation am I able to generate the best sound out of this speaker. My humble contribution in this regard is really squeezing the best out of them and placing them in a non-conventional position. Overall I has stuck with original Apogee parameters (crossover points etc.) but improved them with better components. The best sound ultimately came when I moved them in the middle of the room (see my article on planar speaker placement at audiogon). I think most Apogee an Maggies owners have got it wrong. Their speaker positions are far from optimal but they think they listening to good sounds. It is like driving a Ferrari on 35 MPH streets and enjoying it and not knowing the real fun at 90 MPH on a freeway.

Thus speaker placement is most important, much more than the amp and other associated items. That is where the Scintilla falls short. It is titled and not completely straight. The FR is straight, dead straight, which is how its back and front waves combine with each other to create a totally 3D sound in a holographic fashion. I have almost no toe-in (1/4 inch only) and have them at 55% of the room length. Do experiment with your Scintilla and you might discover some new wonders.

gallant_diva February 02, 2014 02:44

Owner

Schubert: Peter Gabriel is not related to me so it doe snot offend me if you think it is ludicrous to call him a music genius. Michael Jackson was sarcastic joke but even then some people might disagree with you, although I am not a bug fan (except for the Thriller song). Since it is a matter of opinion, and not facts, we can all have different perspective. I do think Peter Gabriel is a genius, otherwise how else could he have composed the soundtrack of The Last Temptation of Christ. You may not like his music, but you are probably not familiar with his other contributions in music including bringing some great artists from around the world to international audiences.

By the enlighten me who your music geniuses are.

gallant_diva February 01, 2014 19:08

Owner

Czarivey: Youa re so right. In freezing winter, I get the warmth of these amps to soothe me in a very comfortable way, enhancing the listening pleasure. The summers are a problem though :)

gallant_diva February 01, 2014 19:01

Owner

not even Michael Jackson? :) Peter Gabriel is more than a rocker and hence a genius :)

gallant_diva January 29, 2014 23:10

Owner

Peter Gabriel is a music genius, who has not just with the ability to produce music combined with creativity but also has the ability to recognize other music geniuses.

gallant_diva January 29, 2014 02:54

Owner

Grannyring: Thank you. My driver tubes? I have too many and hard to recall the combination in the GT-400, GT-800, and the Dude. Think of your favorite dish and then try to recall what combination of salt, pepper, cinnamon, cumin, coriander you added :)

But it is combination of 5692 (red base RCA or Raytheons) and 6SN7s.

gallant_diva January 28, 2014 03:38

Owner

Zephyr24069: Tony Levin is excellent. Not sure if you have seen the videos of some of Peter Gabriel's concert. Tony Levin played some great guitar in there.

Do you have the Best Of Dire Straits & Mark Knopfler: Private Investigations (2CD)?

gallant_diva January 28, 2014 03:31

Owner

glenhifi, thank you for the kind words. But you know looks can be deceiving (and being active on audio forums can also be deceiving...and the amount of money spent on audio can also be deceiving). It is the listening that is believing.

Not sure where you live but you are cordially welcome for a listen.

gallant_diva January 27, 2014 23:33

Owner

royalty: hahaha that is because I have not come up with the final words of thank you speech for your assistance in making that power supply :)

Seriously, several items need to be updated in the system...one of these days...if I get a break from my deep listening pleasures, hehehehe

gallant_diva January 27, 2014 23:30

Owner

HI Zephyr24069, I am gonna shop for Yello's . I have several other Yello albums and like them all and hence can imagine Touch to be as good as you say.
will also look for Jordan Rudess' "The Road Home".

I will look at my collection and make some recommendations for you....when the collection is too big, some times it is hard to pick recommendations!!

gallant_diva January 25, 2014 14:49

Owner

Des, the range of loading would be system and taste depending. What are your impression of 200 vs 50?
I do not know your system.

gallant_diva January 03, 2014 23:59

Owner

T212: Correction, I have the loading set at 200 ohm, not 100 ohm as I previously said. Sorry for the mistake.

gallant_diva January 01, 2014 22:02

Owner

Another piece of excellence is Influence album by The Art of Noise. You would think it is another non-musical audiophile crap. Nope, the music is stunningly good while providing all audio glory....love it.

gallant_diva January 01, 2014 21:38

Owner

My musical tastes run the gamut (sans hip-hop and rap which are blasphemy to the word music) ....LOL. well said.

I agree with you on the points you made. For me one thing is very important. The piece of music has to be musical, not just good sounding. I have several (100s) of audiophile recordings and while each was carefully purchased, I only like those that have good music, not just good sound (e.g. just a good sounding drum). Those are the ones that I keep coming back to again and again. The difference is like a woman with sexy body and no brain and the woman with sexy body and brain. The latter is better..... well may be not a good analogy because sometimes you just wished sexy body and no brain..oh well...LOL. But you know what I mean.

HAPPY NEW YEAR

gallant_diva December 27, 2013 18:32

Owner

Itch:

I have got one GT-800 (a pair of mononblocks for left and right channel). Each side has two chasis (one for am, one for power supply).

I have also got one GT-400 (two monblocks).

The GT-800 is driving the bass on right and right channel sides. The GT-400 is driving the midranges and tweeters.

The GT-800 was modified with a special transformer to match the 2 ohm impedance of the Apogee woofer without having to use the step-up transformer.

This the only Apogee Fullrange system in the world to my knowledge that is all tube drivern, so yeah something is crazy here.

Hope that clarifies.

gallant_diva December 27, 2013 17:44

Owner

Zephyr24069: Glad to know of your musical taste, several similarities with mine. I have both He Xun Tian (Paramita) and Dawada. I am a big fan of Yello. Have several Ondekoza works. Will check out Solaris' "Nostradamus.

Winston Ma of FIM himself gave me a good collection of his several K2HD CDs as a gift.

If you want to talk about Chinese music, then be my guest for 3 months and listen to a new master piece everyday :)

I think this discussion of musical tastes is very useful and hopefully also benefit other readers.

gallant_diva December 27, 2013 04:52

Owner

Zephyr24069: Thanks for the recommendations. I am certainly gonna be looking for The Last Samurai and Tears of the Sun. I am a big admirer of Hans Zimmer and Lisa Gerard.

I assume you have the soundtrack of the Gladiator?

Here are some additional recommendations:

1. Hero

2. The Kingdom of Heaven

3. Crimson Tide

4. Poseidon Adventure

5. Bridges of the Madison County

6. The Blade Runner

7. The Last Temptation of Christ

8. Dead Man Walking

9. Natural Born Killers

I also have the soundtrack of New Superman movies (another score by Hans Zimmer). I listened to its once but will listen again before making a judgment although my impression is Dark Night is much better.

gallant_diva December 26, 2013 22:05

Owner

Chadeffect: Thank you. Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to you too.

gallant_diva December 25, 2013 15:47

Owner

Zephyr24069: I like a wide stratum of music, virtually anything that sounds good and can inspire.

Have you listened to the sound track of "The Dark Knight Rises"? try it.

gallant_diva December 25, 2013 02:35

Owner

Johny_1: Thank you buddy for the kind comments. The room is 26 by 16. You asked the most important question, that is speaker placement. Basically, I view speakers and room as one entity -- they must be in total harmony and in complete synch with each other in order to generate optimal audio performance. This is particularly true for planar speakers. It took me many years to figure out the optimal speaker placement.

Sadly, most audiophiles do not pay attention to it even though they know it is important. They are willing to spend thousands of dollars in cables and other tweaks but won't be open minded about experimenting (liberally) with the speaker placement. I wrote an article about it a few years back, if you are interested.

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?cspkr&1279867740

My speakers are currently at 15 feet from the front wall. Their outer edges are about 6 inches from the side walls. There is no toe-in. My listening seat is about 2 feet from the back wall, and hence about 9 feet from the hypothetical line between the edges of the left and right speakers.

gallant_diva December 25, 2013 01:06

Owner

Itch: hahahaha, $900,000? You gotta be kidding me, man. There is no way the price of my amplification can be that. You missed 2 zeros at the end my friend.....think of $90,000,000. The amp chassis are made of pure gold, and tube sockets made of ivory, and caps made with special oil extracted from the center of Africa inhabited by a tribe that abandoned cannibalism only a decade ago.

All wiring is done with pure rhodium obtained from the bottom of the Pyramids in Egypt. The tubes manufactured in 1942 and plugged from the equipment used in first atomic explosion. I had them cryogenically treated at- 10,000 degrees to get rid of any remaining contamination. The base of the amp is made from marble left over from Taj Mahal (that the king had hid but was recently excavated). The spikes of the amps are made from casting the iron that was discovered with Tereracota warriors in China. The tube rings are special ones from Japan and were worn by nineteenth century Sumo wrestlers (you know which part of their anatomy, right?) I was hesitant to try them but I was assured they have been clinically cleaned. Moreover, I have a private jet which can bring Paul Wetzel of TRL, Steve Dobbins of Xact Audio, and Graz of Apogee Acoustics, any time any maintenance is required. That is only a part of the cost my friend. Your math needs some adjustment, pal.

gallant_diva December 25, 2013 00:47

Owner

Thank you Zephyr24069. You too have a very nice system.

happy holidays. Make suggestions of some good music if you can :)

gallant_diva December 24, 2013 03:43

Owner

System edited: tons of pictures added

gallant_diva December 24, 2013 03:41

Owner

I hate to beat my own drum and that has never been my intention but cannot help share my joy with all of you nice audio buddies. The sound is so damn musical. It is like magic, with holographic images everywhere in the room including the side walls in front and rear of the speakers. Continue to listen with full resolution for hours and hours and there I no listening fatigue. It gives goose bumps every time I listen.

In sharing my joy with you -- hope you bear with me -- I will be mentioning some wonderful pieces of music.

last night I was listening to the Soundtrack of "1492" by Vangelis. What pieces of music that is, both sonically and musically. I kept playing it over and over, as I left I had been transported back in time and was sailing on the ship with Columbus, hahaha

gallant_diva December 22, 2013 20:07

Owner

Mallen123: Big mistake you made. My Apogee Fullrange with go with me to the grave. It is not a speaker that you wanna get rid of. But it (and other planar speakers) does require extremely careful placement. Most of the Apogeee owners have it wrong and hence do not know what they are missing.

gallant_diva December 21, 2013 22:16

Owner

T212: I have the loading set at 100 ohm and VTF at 1.85.

However, I must mention that I love my digital more :)

gallant_diva December 21, 2013 22:12

Owner

Albert: I have been in touch with audiogon technical support to see if my old system could be restored, along with all the threads (which is really the wealth of information) but sadly it could not be done.

Nice to hear from you.

gallant_diva December 21, 2013 22:11

Owner

Azjake: According to the number of comments posted by people.

gallant_diva December 18, 2013 22:01

Owner

Thanks Arnie, It is nice to see your system evolving to new levels.

gallant_diva December 18, 2013 22:01

Owner

Jfrech: Thank you. Yes,perhaps it would be reasonably safe to assume that I am probably inclined to liking tube a bit.... I guess :):)

gallant_diva December 18, 2013 22:00

Owner

Thank you for the kind words, Glai.

I did own the Jadis JA-500 for 2-3 years and totally enjoyed it. It is a great amp, may be among the best.
The sound has high resolution, and the amp excels in every area including sweet midrange, silky highs and powerful bass.

I have also listened to JA-500's bigger sibling the JA-800 and the smaller sibling, the JA-200. I think the JA-200 is sweeter and better sounding than its bigger siblings, perhaps it performs in all Class A mode (though the JA-500 has a switch to choose between class A and AB). If you choose any of these Jadis amps you cannot go wrong. They are marvelous. They all have 3D holographic sound.

However, the Jadis amps cannot stand up to the Tube Research labs amps ... but then which one does? The TRL GT-400 outperforms the Jadis, while the GT-800 is in even a higher league. Overall, the Jadis is probably the second best sounding tube amp in my experience.

gallant_diva December 18, 2013 21:58

Description

Room Details

Components Toggle details

Apogee Acoustics Fullrange

Sony Tube Research Labs moded DVP-S900V

Microseiki RX-1500fvg

Reed tonearm 2P

Ortofon A-90

TRL, Inc. GTR-800

Charlie's DIY X-2

TRL, Inc. Dude

TRL, Inc. GT-400

Pass Labs X-ONO

Denon 102R

Element Miscellaneous

DIY speaker cables DIY

SME 3009r

TTWeight Audio Tip Toes

TTWeight Audio Tip Toes

DIY Turntable Stand

DIY Vibraplane support tennis balls

REL Acoustics Stadium mkII

TTWeight Audio Motor feet

DIY Sound diffusor Cityline

DIY cityline diffusor made of styrofoam

Chinese painting one of my favorite collections

Paul Weitzel Tube Research Labs

Steve Dobbins Eact Audio

Albert Von Schweikert Famous spekaer design

Apogee Acoustics Scintilla

Apogee Acoustics Centaur Major

Apogee Acoustics Slant 8

Apogee Acoustics Stage

house audio room

Comments 276

Showing all comments by gallant_diva.

Similiar items on Audiogon

Latest forum discussions

Audiogon

Forum

Bluebook

Merch