Doug,
I am sure the TEO Lquid Pre is special. I did contact them about a balanced version but was told it will take a major reworking of the preamp, and they do not have time presently for that. I also enquired about an additional output (which is common with most preamps) but was told I have to purchase 10 Liquid Pre's in order for that to materialise.

4orreal February 23, 2015 10:29

System edited: Putting up some beautiful systems lately with the TEO Audio Liquid Pre. I had a seasoned audiophile who runs SET/HE and vinyl, as well as an industry insider here lately. Both enthusiastically endorsed the rig as the best I have assembled. I'm quite pleased with the combination of the TEO Liquid Pre and Wells Audio Innamorata amp.

douglas_schroeder February 22, 2015 21:23

Eugene, It's fun watching you remake your system and experience the thrill of a massive upgrade. We tend to think the current sound is pretty close to state of the art, but there are literally hundreds of levels of sound quality and always a lot of room for improvement.

Make sure you demo the TEO Audio Liquid cable interconnects.

USB cable is crucial to top end sound for file playback; it can make or break the entire system's sound. Then again, I've often said that every link, from power cord to speaker is crucial.

I do have many "just sit there and listen moments," as you said, and they are precious. But at heart I am a system builder, and find joy in exploration of systems as much as anything. That's why I love having more than one type of speaker technology and the opportunity of discrete opamp rolling a DAC. Both yield endless fun and new experiences. :) You will be able to get much of the same flexibility and new experiences through USB cables.

I'm looking forward to the massive upgrade in sound quality over the Nimbus White which the Joule White will represent. You have just gotten the new speaker, and if you continue to work with it you will be stunned how differently it will sound in six to twelve months! It has a lot more to give than you are hearing now. :)

douglas_schroeder February 16, 2015 10:39

System edited: Did some picture updating, now showing the incredible TEO Audio Liquid Pre, a world-class caliber preamp. You will see in the pic that I am conducting tests on isolation. This is the only component I have used in the digital domain for which isolation has proven to be efficacious. I have been doing no streaming with the Sonos lately, as I can't get a WiFi signal into my bunker-like room through Apple products. I will be rearranging the home office to put it closer to the audio room beneath, so I hope that will fix the WiFi issue. Then I can push the boundaries of Sonos further. I have a custom build of the Vapor Audio Joule White coming soon. Combined with the Liquid Pre and Wells Innamorata amp it should push the performance to a new standard.

douglas_schroeder February 15, 2015 12:55

Sounds like you are getting closer and closer to that satisfying just sit there and listen moment... I'm pretty happy now but still attempting to improve things... I might move to Antipodes DX top level server. The upgraded Cirrus to Joule with Dueland RS caps has amazing musical presentation, the mid and is off the charts, I just upgraded my PS Audio DSD DAC to their Pikes Peak release, added some Akiko tuning sticks and their triple ac stick, also I live around the corner from Mike Powell who owns Verastarr cable and use his a mix of his copper and all silver ac cables. He also has allowed me to test his new USB cable. I wholeheartedly agree with you I had formerly used an IFI cable and a Cardas cable, the Verastarr has made a considerable difference. Next I am going to try one of Audioquest Ethernet cables

eugene2 February 15, 2015 11:08

System edited: It's been a while since I updated my system. I have moved completely to file playback, with a Mac Mini controlled by iPad, a sensational world-class preamp in the TEO Audio Liquid Pre, continued discrete opamp rolling on Eastern Electric DACs, and have laid plans to secure a custom tricked out version of the Vapor Audio Joule White. The system has taken a decidedly SOTA turn in the past year, and file playback has been instrumental in it. USB cables have been essential, and a test between about eight products has found the Clarity Cable Organic USB to find consistent use in my rig. The Landscape orientation experiment was considered successful, but to extend other elements, i.e. TEO Audio Liquid Pre, I let go of the Daedalus Ulysses speakers. I have some other ideas in mind for further Landscape experiments. I am also summoning the courage to delve into a DIY build of Hypex nCore amps.

douglas_schroeder February 14, 2015 20:00

Eugene2, I'm certainly not opposed to dedicated servers. I would anticipate that over time I will explore them thoroughly. Knowing that it's a big digital world out there for file playback, with a lot of moving pieces (companies, systems, etc.), when our household switched to Mac I thought it a lovely time to start simple with the Mac Mini. I had read all about the tweaks to the Mini, as well as the "opposition" PC file playback crowd.

Seeing how Mac is upgrading their Mini to have 32 bit ouput, which mine does, I'm happy I didn't go for an older unit and spend big on external PSU, etc. Macintosh upgrades their operating software's audio and I get an upgrade, too. And with the myriad of small servers out there, I'm not too worried that Mac will be out of business anytime soon. These are not minor considerations.

I thought it would be nice to start basic and see just how far I could get with a scratch computer, i.e. stock, and simultaneously entertain a theory that with the right DAC one might be able to replicate much of what a fancy dedicated server could do.

Right or wrong, I have made astounding strides in the sound quality of the humble Mac Mini. This is not to say that it's proven to be equal or better than a server, but it's surpassed where I thought it could get to. It's demonstrated to me that the selection of DAC, USB cable, interconnects and power cord in the file playback chain is profoundly important.

I figure in this year I will begin to work with some servers, and frankly I'm going to be disgusted if the sound quality is not radically better, for all the discussion about it being superior. The result I'm getting has surprised some veteran audiophiles who have heard my rig. I don't think they figured this kind of sound was possible from a humble file playback source.

I have an industry insider coming to my home this weekend, and I'm looking forward to having him hear the rig, as he heard it years ago and it's much more marvelous now than when I was spinning discs. He has a blown out dual computer setup with special software to optimize the playback. So, I think it will be very interesting to hear his comments. I'm hoping that the computer guru who set his system up will tag along as he may be able to come as well. Then I may get some very knowledgeable input as to where in general my efforts have gotten me.

Do I think I'm at the top of file playback? No, but neither do I think a file playback computer is an assurance that one will get optimum sound quality. I have heard systems with all manner of software, reclocking, power conditioning, etc. and I believe that I have already matched that level of definition and transparency, so what does that say?

To me it says the "K.I.S.S." method is working pretty good so far. But, I have also learned well enough that simply because the sound is great to my ears, it in no way means there is not a lot of gain to be had in improvements. I would love if at the end of this year I can look back and scoff at the sound quality I have now by moving to a custom server. :)

One of the people who will hear this rig eventually is Ryan at Vapor. He thought the Nimbus White sounded pretty good when they were first set up, but things have gotten far better.

douglas_schroeder February 04, 2015 14:33

What about dedicated music server instead of the Mac mini, Ryan, Mike from Verastarr and I all have an Antipodes it has worked magically in my system.

eugene2 February 02, 2015 22:00

Doug...amazing review as always, very enjoyable reading!

zephyr24069 January 18, 2015 13:36

I just posted some impressions of the TEO Audio Liquid Pre (hopefully posted here in the Amplification forum; awaiting moderator approval. It's posted at AA).

I recently set up the Pass Labs X600.5 monos (reviewed, as was the Liquid Pre, for Dagogo.com) and they have been transformed. No longer do they exhibit the thinness I thought was characteristic of them. I now suspect that active preampfification was the culprit in that sound quality. The Liquid Pre and X600.5 is a stellar combo. These are driving the Vapor Audio Nimbus White speakers to great effect. I love the bass presence and quality of the Acoustic Elegance 15" bass driver.

The digital front end is under review, but I will say that I'm doing 32/384. Years ago I said that the ESS Sabre 32 bit chips and architecture would become the standard of digital playback, and they effectively have done so. Not surprising, given the performance.

This is a system I can hear and actually for a while shut down my analytical side, which is very rare. :)

douglas_schroeder January 17, 2015 10:13

Papermill, thanks for the complement, which means much given the outstanding rig you have assembled.

Papermill and I have been friends for the better part of the decade and have seen our rigs "grow up" alongside each other. He has a very live sounding room, albeit with excellent absorption elements in the form of rug, soft sided furniture, etc. to complement the delicious décor.

I, on the other hand, have a very damped room, more like a studio. The difference in listening environment is quite striking, and we always remark about it. We have both reached a very high level of performance in two distinct spaces. We both enjoy each other's rig, and admire the sound, which is a great part of this hobby!

Papermill heard the Mac Mini, Clarity Cable Organic USB, a particular DAC under review, the new TEO Liquid Pre, the Wells Audio Innamorata amp, some cables under review, and the Legacy Audio Whisper DSW Clarity Edition (custom edition of the Whisper with 10Ga. Clarity Cable throughout internally). He was in agreement this was the most pristine and involving the Whisper had ever sounded. One of the most striking attributes of adding the Liquid Pre was how dramatically the multiplicity of drivers of the Whisper were tightened in terms of coherency to the point that the speaker lost a great deal of looseness characteristic of line array type speakers.

Now, the most recent build returns to some favorites of the past; Mac Mini via Clarity USB to DAC under review, to Liquid Pre, then Clarity Organic IC to Pass Labs X600.5 Monos, and once again the speaker cables under review, and finally the Vapor Audio Nimbus White. Wow, what a bomb, like a Daisy Cutter has been dropped; quite impressive how much clean output the pair of Acoustic Elegance woofers produce.

The Pass Labs amps are now operating with no weakness; the thinner character I mentioned in the review is gone, and they are holistically improved, very difficult to find fault with this application. The headroom and dynamic power of the X600.5 is, as expected with Pass amps, intoxicating.

I just spoke with Ryan Scott of Vapor yesterday, and told him that it was just as I had said when he delivered the Nimbus White speakers; they would be sounding much better with time. Indeed, they have a much elevated performance level with the Liquid Pre - all the speakers have benefitted thus.

The Liquid Pre does amazing things for rigs, and is one of the simplest, yet most extreme performing components I have laid hands on.

douglas_schroeder January 13, 2015 09:22

Hi Doug. Yes. The Teo sounds wonderful in your system. Mature refinement! Congrats!

papermill January 12, 2015 17:46

I can now discuss my latest joy, the TEO Audio Liquid Pre, which the article exploring is now posted at Dagogo.com.
In case you can't sense it, I'm floored by this passive preamp which uses liquid metal conductors in the wiring. I always enjoy the technology variances in components and systems, and I am quite pleased to have secured such a unique and sensational preamp.

douglas_schroeder January 11, 2015 06:36

Killer system.

thesaint519 September 07, 2014 20:15

Jeff, some very good questions. Yes, I know that it seems incredible that a USB cable would have any influence on the sound, but it does. In fact, it has as much impact on the sound for the rig as any other cable. I have, through comparisons of dozens of sets of cables, concluded that any cable has an effect on the system sound, and that any cable can have as much of an impact as any other cable, i.e. USB versus power cord, versus interconnect, etc.

People make their decision on whether they believe it, and act accordingly; those who simply will try are usually rewarded. I am currently using a Clarity Cable Organic USB most often, but I have tried about ten USB cables in my rigs and they all are distinct in sound.

The subwoofers are not front firing, but are Legacy Audio XTREME HD subs which I turned around to have the primary wave launch direct versus off the front wall. They look a lot prettier the other way around, with the face showing, but I prefer the sound this way. You will likely be surprised at how much more is added to a system when using dual subs.

douglas_schroeder August 24, 2014 10:37

Doug,

Last question.
I noticed in your pictures you have 2 humongous front firing subwoofers.
Who are they?

I've always wAnted to try a dual sub setup.

Jeff

frozentundra August 23, 2014 07:50

Even more enticement Doug. Hope all is well with you.

roscoeiii August 23, 2014 07:38

Doug,
I have read thru your entire set of postings.
Wow, over the years you have been thru a lot of stuff!

I'm interested your mac mini and usb and cabling choices.
I'm surprised that a usb cable using digital correction to the data transfers would show,any sonic differences.

What is your choice to date? And do you hear differences?

Digital and analog cables should make a difference, but a usb?

Jeffz

frozentundra August 23, 2014 07:31

Roscoeiii, nice to hear from you. There have been many changes in the system since you were here, and the performance has been improved across the board. I don't think you heard my file source, or the rig with speakers repositioned wider.

douglas_schroeder August 22, 2014 21:10

Very nicely put Doug. So many great sounds that can be put together at this point. To match rooms, budgets, listening preferences and aesthetic tastes.

And your system as I heard it last was a real treat to enjoy.

Hope you are well. Hope to catch up soon once things lighten up down here.

roscoeiii August 22, 2014 19:02

Jeff, you're right, the Vapor speakers are quite tempting given their aesthetics, performance level and pricing.

I have gotten the, "So, which do you like the best," question several times from a friend who has heard about half the systems I have set up in the past 5 years or so, and I believe all the speakers. I will tell you the same thing I tell him; my favorite is the one in the rig at the time.

I suspect that's a thoroughly unsatisfying answer, but there are two reasons for it. One is that I expended my budget differently in order to never have to face that question, as I discovered I love the variety of technology and experiencing it as much as the movement toward an ideal expression of one technology. If I had only one speaker I'd likely still be flipping them regularly in an attempt to attain all the sonic qualities they possess.

Secondly, I attempted to select speakers any one of which could be a long term choice, that is, to perform on a level which I would be happy using. As such it is my experience that I often am happiest with the speaker in the rig. If another is put in, shortly I'm elated with that one...

The experience shows several things, including how quickly we adapt to a new sound, how malleable our perceptions are over time, and how many terrific varieties of systems exist, none having it all in terms of a perfect performance.

In a way they are like pets (I think it would be crude to compare them to children), in that an owner of several pets would struggle to simply dismiss all but one. They are unique and pleasing individually. So also the speakers, as they are unique and bring different experiences, which I consider overall a more powerful enjoyment of the hobby than one experience.

The Vapor easily found a place in my system due to its phenomenal coherence and accuracy, and in that respect it is the equal of the King III ESL. Yes, when it's in my system it's my favorite. :)

Finally, I think you have done a commendable job on your rig! I have the Peachtree Nova in my office running with some vintage Eminent Technology LFT-VI speakers, a nice pairing. I also think Thiel did a good job with the SCS-4T, which reminds me somewhat of the Tannoy dual concentric drivers. I would think the combo of the Peachtree and Thiel speakers would sound very good, snappy, fresh, but not irritating. Kudos on putting a good sub with them; good move. You have selected components which I would strongly consider at that price point, so from my perspective you're doing things right. :)

I have a couple of tweak thoughts for your system; if you are interested feel free to contact me via the messaging system here.

douglas_schroeder August 22, 2014 08:36

Doug,
I've followed the Nimbus white review, really tempting.
I've listened to Vapor audio at Chicago axpona this year.

So, of all the fabulous setups you have.
What is your favorite??????

Jeff

frozentundra August 20, 2014 18:03

Radiohead99, these are DACs under review, so I'm not saying much at this point so as to not spill the guts of the findings before the articles are published. If you wish to contact me privately, we can chat.

I will say, however, that I'm finding a lot of ways to elicit great sound from a variety of USB DACs at all price points, from a few hundred dollars to a couple thousand. Also, so far the 32 bit/384kHz up sampling is very impressive treatment of standard CD's. The quality is broadly better than 24/96 high end players I used/reviewed just a few years ago. At this point I would say a move to a USB 32/384 DAC would almost assure a holistically superior sound to 24/96, and perhaps even 24/192 CD players and DACs from five years ago, in general.

In terms of the server, it couldn't get any easier, as I'm using a stock Mac Mini, ripped using iTunes, and on playback switching between iTunes and Amarra (not the latest version as of about a week go - gotta upgrade that!). Even though the server is far from totally tricked out the SQ is excellent. An aftermarket PC on the Mac Mini is recommended, and I'm using one from Audioquest (Note, it's not the typical IEC plug; I think it's a C7 if I'm not mistaken). The performance will get better over time, but even if it plateaued at this point it would be a success. I can hardly imagine having to go back to discs; it would be a step backwards. Due to circumstances I had the transport in the rig for a while this week and I was happy to get back to the Mac and files (Not rank and file!).

One thing which has become evident is that the quality of the DAC is so pervasive that one should audition several. Choose a DAC which results in a performance level which you feel is far, far better than you anticipated possible. If the sound is nice improvement but not radically superior, keep looking.

BTW, also pay careful attention to the USB cable; it's critical to the performance.
You owe it to yourself to try at least 2 or 3.

douglas_schroeder July 24, 2014 16:39

Doug, Curious about which DAC gave you such a boost in sound quality. Also, if you can please elaborate on your music server solution.

radiohead99 July 23, 2014 09:47

File playback is progressing quite nicely; SQ levels much higher than I anticipated at this point. I'm comparing a wide variety of USB and DAC components and finding a huge range of performance variance as expected.

I urge those who have been slow to make USB cable changes to do so, as there is a figurative world of quality potential to be discovered, even for those with affordable digital front end.

The elevation of the file playback has lifted the performance of the already impressive Vapor Nimbus White, and I expect similar results with Legacy Whisper, King III, Daedalus, etc.

I'm still only working with PCM converted to AIFF, and had industry members in the room to hear. They are impressed with the result which is largely due to the DACs and USB cabling used, and that's before I even have DSD rolling. I strongly encourage those who have been reluctant to start out with file playback. It has been several months, and I haven't a desire to return to Redbook. That says to me the File playback test is a rousing success! And I'm just getting started. :)

douglas_schroeder May 08, 2014 07:43