Horns, Tubes, and a 60lb Platter

by t_bone on Ever Evolving

Description

The system has been cobbled together over several years. Everything listed has been bought used over time with the exception of the carts, the phono stage, and some Jade Audio interconnects (but perhaps surprisingly, only a few pieces were acquired through an Audiogon intro). I am very happy with the system as it is. Without having delved into Audiogon early on, I doubt I would have gone down the road for used components this far. Without the collective input and gathered wisdom of fellow Audiogoners who freely offer their expertise and insight, getting to this point would have taken me longer than it has. For this, I thank Audiogon's forum members.

Jadis Eurythmie speakers:

Large horns (see the picture above) with wonderful, liquid sound. While the mid-range horns are wonderful, the beautiful bass reproduction and super-tweeters make the mids sound so much better than I thought they could. I bought these in a store where I could compare them against megadollar speakers at the time (2003) and these lacked nothing. Anyone who has listened to and loved big mid-range horns will know what I mean when I say it will be tough making me go back to box speakers.

The Jadis JP 80 pre-amp came before the EMM combo or else I might have skipped it and just gone with the pre-amp section in the DCC2, which works extremely well as a linestage on its own. The JP80 is slightly euphonic but I have, for now, come to the conclusion that the coloration pleases me far more than it displeases me so I stick with it. I am considering some modifications to improve low-level detail retrieval. I am using a ZYX Artisan as a phono stage, and the EMM Labs CDSD/DCC2 as a digital source. The generally glowing reviews on the 'gon of the CDSD/DCC2 are really well-deserved. I have yet to hear a digital source I'd rather use.

The amps are holdovers from my first real system, which had speakers which required more power than the Eurythmies do. I have always appreciated these amps, whether with box speakers, electrostats, or now horns. They provide great reserves of power and control the Eurythmies extremely well - 300Bs are OK for Mozart piano sonatas but leave one wondering where the bass went when moving to anything which goes below 180Hz. I have generally read that conventional wisdom calls the big VTL amps "dark" and I guess I can see where that comes from, but they work wonders for me. The VTLs are not "sweet" the way my EAR 859 integrated (now used as a headphone amp) can be at the top end, but I have yet to find a tube amp I prefer overall.

The Micro Seiki turntable is a recent-ish acquisition which I am working on bringing back to life. I hope to have it up and running in a few weeks/months (the whole thing weighs a short ton and takes up rack space I don't have so I am having a new rack/table built for it). I will update as I get this done. In the meantime...

UPDATE

The TT set-up currently in use is a late 1970s Yamaha PX-1 linear-tracking DD table, the precursor to the better-known (in the US) PX-2. For a DD turntable, it weighs a short ton. The speed appears to be quite stable, adjustments are very easy, and the fact that it is automatic makes life very easy sometimes. The PX-1 is currently running with a Denon DL103R (and a DL102 mono cart) through the ZYX Artisan phono stage. I am extremely happy with the Artisan. The Artisan is extremely quiet and in my experience, as neutral as can be ("despite" the fact it is solid state); one wek in I was a fan, and months later, there is no change to my fanhood and no complaints whatsoever). It may be my lack of expertise in set-up, but the ZYX shows that the cart isn't the strong link in this particular analog chain.

Update 10/31/06: An upcoming move will allow me more space (and better ergonomics for using the system) and will probably allow me some ability to treat the room. This is something I am looking forward to because the room now is by far the weakest part of the system. Wish me luck!

Update 03/06/07: Moved finally but a 2+ month business trip in the interim has left me with boxes still to unpack, a living room to tweak (because as is it sounds terrible), and a new rack to acquire. But... it has also led to the purchase of some Purist Dominus Rev B PCs (used), and a couple of pair of Jade Audio interconnects. I happened to run across a Jadis JF-1 crossover as well in the interim, which sorely tempted me. How could I turn down the chance to get the crossover specifically designed to power my speakers? The answer is I couldn't, so it's there too. Now I have to get another two channels of amplification somewhere!

Update: In the last 2-3yrs, I have been playing with DD turntables, including some of the great ones from the 1970s and 80s. They are shockingly good in some cases, and represent surprisingly good value. After listening to a few of the "lower" priced tables (PL-7L, Diatone LT-1) and the Yamaha PX-1 intensively, I went out to stereo stores to listen to newer setups, specifically listening to them with Denon 103R because it was going to be frowned upon by dealers as a lesser cart. I found nothing them wanting for nothing when compared to new table+arm setups until multiples of the older DDs' market price. The Yamaha PX-1 loses to the Micro Seiki in noise floor, but not by a lot. The P3 is a monster, where the torque difference is readily apparent. It sounds quieter than its specs. The Denon DP80 I also have a few unplinthed TTs I have been waiting to plinth before actually doing my own shoot-out review. Not sure if I am ever going to get there, and at this point, I think I should probably let some go. I really only "need" 1 or 2 per system. (heh-heh).

Update 10/19/09: it has been ages since I updated the system to mention some of the other tables which make it on to the main shelves from time to time. They are included in the system description (with pics in most cases). Maybe I'll add commentary here sometime. The newest addition is a Denon DP-100 with SME 3012R Pro arm. It is super-quiet and super speed-stable. I have only used it a few days so far but it is fantastic. It deserves its reputation.
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Components Toggle details

    • Jadis Eurythmie II
    4-way front-loaded 104db horn speakers; twin isobaric woofers (per speaker) good for 20Hz. Love'em or hate'em looks.
    • VTL MB 450 Signature
    tube monoblocks; 8 6550s each; tetrode/triode switchable (450 watts in tetrode, 225 watts in triode).
    • Jadis JF-1
    2-Way active tube crossover, specifically designed for the Jadis Eurythmie speakers, with a crossover point at 180Hz. 12db slope I believe.
    • Jadis JP 80
    two chassis preamp with MM phono stage (not MC version). Single-digit serial number so an earlier version...
    • EMM CDSD
    CD/SACD transport
    • EMM DCC2
    CDSD-matching DAC with built-in line stage.
    • ZYX Artisan
    MC/MM phono stage (CR-type equalizer) with 55dB of gain (MC); red lacquer version. So-called "battery-powered" but bps doesn't last long.
    • Micro Seiki SX-8000
    TT#1: early 80s Japanese monster. 60lb platter, heavier base, air bearing. Separate motor and air pump. Mounts for 4 arms.
    • Triplanar VII
    Not set up yet. Soon to be on the Micro Seiki.
    • ZYX UNIverse S
    Nakatsuka-san's finest. Soon to be on the Triplanar which will be on the Micro Seiki.
    • Micro Seiki Max-237
    OK arm.
    • Denon DN-308F
    This table was Denon's last and greatest turntable console for professional use (unless they make another one). It was launched in the early 1980s as a follow-on from the DN-307F, and is said to have the highest torque of any turntable ever made. The AC-servo 3-pole brushless motor plays 33, 45, and 78 rpm vinyl with supreme accuracy and stability, and for all of you budding DJs out there, it has a handy braking and clutch system for cueing records to the head of the song quite quickly. It comes with a giant, relatively thick, MDF casing, which helps the weight up to 180lbs. It has a large 14" turntable, with a huge motor (looks like a can of paint) inside the casing. It comes with its own arm, a long-armed version of the DA-308, which is set up specifically to use the DL-103 as its cart. The arm is probably not the best out there, but handily, there are some SME armbases which work with the DN-308F if you want to use an SME 3012R. Note, it takes a very short headshell, or a headshell with long mounting holes (so you can place the cart well back). It has far more 'stuff' than a regular record player - much of which is specifically for studio use, not home use but some of which is wonderful for home use. From left to right on the front panel of the console, it has an on/off toggle, a speaker grille, and a dead-man switch (with stylus down, you can dig for the start of the song, go back a quarter turn, and when you press play, it will be spinning perfectly at the start of the song) for monitor use (for cueing records), which can either be used with the built-in mini-speaker, or special headphones (Elaga DR-631C, 10kOhms, #110 jacks). In the middle it has a tone control (which I have not yet figured out cleanly), PLAY and STOP buttons, and a balance knob, and then an attenuator with an ATTENUATOR START button (which if on, means that you can start the record by turning on the attenuator (allows a one-motion start and volume fade-in after you've cued using the monitor)). It has a LINE OUT toggle which turns on the line-out amp functionality. On the main plate on the front right, it has a 33/45/78 toggle with a green lamp straight from the 50s. On the back panel, there are two VU meters and a stereo/mono switch. On the top is a handy place to display the current record playing. Inside the box, there are some juicy bits too. If you open the front panel, you can get to the electronics, which are 1) a massive power supply, 2) a line amp, and 3) a fully balanced (reportedly) MC head amp and RIAA phono stage built in. There are some end-user available adjustments to make inside such as raising output by 6dB, a phase toggle, and a switch to use if you are going to be mixing from two tables through a board. The line amp outputs a 600ohm signal of something in the 1.0-1.5V range, and can drive amplifiers directly via XLR cable (which is why this works great in homes - the TT can be away from the speakers, even in a different room, and XLR cables can run straight to the amplifier with very long runs (2-pin is hot)). The tonearm cable can be unplugged from the headamp/RIAA/lineamp circuitry and routed out the back to your own phono stage if you like. It is built for radio station abuse, though the interesting thing is that right when this came out, radio stations, concert halls, and recording studios all over Japan decided they had huge budgets to buy these, did so, and then really never used them. The result is that the condition of these can be variable, but a fair percentage (of an admittedly limited number extant) are in decent condition even today. In addition, Denon will still service these. What could be better? The casing could be better. Supreme execution would include replacing the MDF structure with something like a giant laminated maple or cherry structure top plate to be mounted on legs (with the electronic innards hanging below, or housed in a box below the plinth?), perhaps placed on a minus-K platform. If one rebuilt the top plate structure, there would be plenty of room for a second or third arm as well, especially if one moved the stereo/mono switch to the front panel somehow. Elsewhere, the front panel attenuator and speaker could be better, but both are easily replaceable (and neither matter if you are using your own phono stage). HOWEVER, all in all, this is a fabulous piece of kit, and has to go down as one of the great DD TTs made.
    • Denon DP-100
    Denon's top of the line consumer table, built with their AU-196 out-rotor 3-phase AC servo motor (in the ad copy, originally designed to be a cutting lathe motor). Like other Denons, it also uses the magnetic pulse system on the inner rim of the upper platter piece along with a dual PLL quartz lock system to maintain speed stability. However, this time they have made the platter very heavy (6.5kg) so there is a very high moment of inertia, coupled with a very high torque (10kg/cm2) motor (seeing a shot of the motor is a treat in itself - the whole rotor is the size of a can of paint and is one reason why this thing weighs a short ton). One of the least talked-about bits on this TT is the platter. It has a double platter system - the idea taken off the DP80 - but it goes further. The upper platter and lower platter are connected by a leaf spring creating a high-cut filter. The leaf spring is dampened with silicon oil in the damper shaft. The table has pitch control from +9.9& to -9.9% in 0.1% increments. It plays 78s. The one I have has the DK-1000 base, which adds another 15kg to make the thing 63kg - definitely a two-person operation because I can't even get my arms around it even if I could lift it. I don't have have the electronic servo arm - mine is outfitted with an SME 3012R Pro long arm (though other bases are possible). This combination is super-quiet, and super speed-stable, and is among the quietest tables I have ever heard. You know... all the superlatives that people talk about when they get greater detail out of their records - they're all here when I heard this table for the first time - and that was using a pretty good base for comparison. Pics to come.
    • Exclusive P3
    Exclusive was Pioneer's flagship brand of stereo electronics (the company's multi-story HQ-based showroom in the 1990s had a separate floor/room for Exclusive). The P3 was Exclusive's flagship turntable when introduced in 1978. It is about as over-engineered a DD turntable as was made in the late 1970s and early 1980s. It was also, to my knowledge, the most expensive TT sold until Micro Seiki came out with their SX-8000 in 1981, and the P3 was the most expensive direct-drive TT until its successor, the Exclusive P3a. It was 10% more than the Yamaha PX-1 (which itself was 20+% more than the next comer), more than 3x the plinthless/armless Technics SP-10Mk2, 20% more than the Technics SL1000Mk3 (the fully loaded SP-10Mk3) which came a year later, and 40% more than the Sony PS-X9. In short, it was a player among players. It has the largest and most robust form of the Stable Hanging Rotor drive within the Pioneer family, with mammoth torque - 10kg-cm, some 65% more than the Technics SP-10Mk2 - allowing it to attain 33.3rpm in 0.3sec, despite carrying a 16lb platter cut from a block of aluminum. All wow/flutter/accuracy specs were industry bests, and the P3 S/N ratio, while reported at 78dB, was effectively higher than that according to the 1980 turntable shoot-out (see the vintageknob.org for details). The plinth hides an impressive base/isolation system underneath. This is shown under a separate picture. The only thing I can say is... it is wonderful - and frankly, it's a steal given that it comes with a great built-in isolation system, a fantastic high-torque motor, and a great, purpose-built arm.
    • Exclusive P3 - The Innards
    The TT is mounted on a 25kg barium sulfate and aluminum plate structure (see other photo), supported on 3-method suspension system (oil-damping, springs, rubber grommeting) separating it from the lower base. This structure has a resonance of 5Hz, designed to be below minimum expected tonearm resonance. The Brazilian Rosewood 'plinth' is actually not a plinth per se, but a cover to the mechanism. It is only coupled to the lower base - it remains uncoupled from the motor and platter assembly, and the tonearm structure. The whole thing weighs just over 100lb, including turntable mat.
    • Sony PS-X9
    The Sony PS-X9 was Sony's monument to turntable greatness. It is a classic Japanese engineering exercise sold at a terrible loss per table (par for the course for most Sony statement products). Introduced in 1977, it has a fantastically speed-stable motor with massive torque (7kg-cm - 15% higher than the Technics SP-10Mk2 which was the torque king at the time), with a very wide high-inertia platter. It featured a newly designed arm, the PUA-9, a new cart launch around the same time (the XL-55) where the best handpicked examples were named the XL-55 Pro, and reserved for buyers of this TT. Sony admired the top EMT tables for their engineering, and the homage is visible in the design of the PS-X9. In addition, Sony admired the concept of keeping low-level signals to the shortest possible signal path, and so the table featured a built-in MC headamp (the HA-55, designed specifically for the XL-55 cart), and an RIAA phono stage with excellent specs. This was Sony's "Integrated Turntable." The HeadAmp has 27dB of gain, accepting carts of 0.2mV or more (100ohm standard), and the Phono Stage is a direct-coupled dual-FET differential amplifier (36dB gain, ±0.2dB gain from 20Hz to 20kHz). To top it off, the phono stage had variable loading, both for resistance AND capacitance (how many stages do you know have that?). The headamp and the head amp+RIAA combination are both by-passable. The torque on the table is so large that speed stability is completely flat out to several decimal places with up to 1100 grams of tracking force. It comes up to full 33 1/3 rpm in 1/8th of a platter revolution. The table weighs 35kg/77lbs in its birthday suit. Unfortunately for Sony, the table was a result of the product designers completely missing the spirit of the time. As a table oriented to professional use, it was twice as expensive as the then-current non-console mainstay SP-10Mk2 (the Sony TTS-8000, while sporting a pro-series name, ended up more in the hands of audiophiles). As a table oriented to audiophile use, it flopped. The orange sides were meant to be a Sony signature for top-end products, and ended up on only three products to my knowledge. The competitors at the time were all sleek black (the Pioneer PL-L1, the Yamaha PX-1, etc - the high-gloss rosewood tables started arriving a few years later). What's more, while meant to be a more highly-engineered Japanese version of the EMT 930, for those in that market, it was decidedly not an EMT - it was Japanese - not German, and unforgiveably, it was Japanese and orange. Despite its lack of commercial success, it is a great table. I have been playing it for a little while and I think could live with this table for a long time. It is wonderful with a great stonking TT mat. It is even better when placed on a very good isolation platform - I've been a magnetic flotation platform. As a fully integrated (but still quite flexible) unit, it is a real prize.
    • Kenwood L-07D
    Kenwood's greatest TT and one for the ages. On paper, almost the perfect table (at the time). The aim was to re-think the turntable from the ground up, and create an almost completely rigid plinth/motor/tonearm 'pickup loop' so there were no stray vibrations which passed into the cartridge cantilever. The product was introduced at the same time as the Kenwood L-01T tuner and the L-01A integrated amplifier and the three were the first products to wear the Kenwood brand name in Japan (prior to that, it was 'Trio'). The motor used dual-servo coupling, switching the speed control method depending on whether speed was close to desirable or a bit further away. In addition, the motor had an auto-switching method from DC to AC to reduce influences from the motor drive circuit. Torque was 2.5kg-cm and the moment of inertia was 1025kg-cm^2 (which was among the highest of all DDs). All internal wiring was copper litz, and all connections were gold-plated. The platter was quite heavy (12lbs) , made of two layers of aluminum bonded together, with a (non-magnetic) stainless steel turntable sheet was mounted on top of the platter. The static balance arm made of laminated exotic materials fibers (carbon, boron, aluminum, etc) - somewhat similar to the armtube design of the Sony PUA-9 (which came on the PS-X9) it seems - has 'on-the-fly' adjustments possible. The plinth has a place for a second arm to be added. The result was the highest S/N ratio (-94dB) turntable made in Japan at the time (later, the Exclusive P3a had an ever-so-slightly higher S/N ratio (-95dB DIN B)), and something which wowed the world. How does it sound? Fabulous. Very very quiet, and very stable. The arm is not the be all and end all, but it does not sound bad at all (though it doesn't work with the heaviest carts of the time (or now)). The ability to add a second arm is quite convenient, and unusual for flagship DD players which came with a fixed plinth.
    • Nakamichi Dragon CT
    Nakamichi's 'second-best' table. In 1981, Nakamichi introduced what was perhaps the second most expensive TT in Japan (the most expensive being the Micro Seiki SX-8000 with all its associated doodads). It had a single claim to fame, which was that Nakamichi had figured out a way to estimate how far the record was off-center, and adjust the position of the upper platter so that when the lower platter started spinning, there was no visible evidence of the record being off-center. The TX-1000 was a monster in every way (as it should have been at something like $7000 in 1981 dollars (JPY 1.1 million in Japan)). Two years later, Nakamichi released the Dragon CT (the TT shown here). It had a simpler method of finding 'absolute center' and correcting the upper platter. The Dragon CT was lighter, smaller, and according to reports at the time both in Japan and abroad, vastly more reliable. Being #2 did not make it a bargain though as it was more expensive than almost all other manufacturers' #1 table at JPY 400,000.

    The platter is relatively light, motor is not the highest torque out there, and it is not the quietest table (about the same as the Technics SP-10Mk2, the major Denons of the time (at least the ones below the DP-100). However, the real show here was the centering system, which was based off the concept of doing the same thing for tapes in tape decks (azimuth). The original TX-1000 was spec-ed out by Mr. Nakamichi himself while according to the Vintage Knob website, the CT's design was outsourced to someone else.
    • Yamaha PX-1
    TT#2: Linear-tracking arm, direct-drive (slotless DC motor), fully-automatic, separate power supply. Yamaha's flagship, followed by the PX-2 and PX-3 in the few years which followed.
    • Diatone LT-1
    Diatone's flagship linear-tracking direct drive turntable from 1980. Excellent torque, quite high S/N ratio (80dB) for the time, and very low wow/flutter. Two-piece die-cast aluminum and stainless platter to reduce platter resonance. Short arm made of titanium alloy for lightness and strength. Mine is the lighter-colored version, not the darker one shown in the picture.
    • Sony TTS-8000
    Sony's top consumer deck in the mid 1970s, built off the technology of the 2310 and then later a 5-series (where the name escapes me) - which were built to try and compete with the first Technics SP-10. The TTS-8000 was the top Japan-market consumer deck in the late 1970s (the PS-X9 was the top pro deck) though it was not advertised too heavily. Originally sold with arm (either a PUA-1600 long or short arm, or the PUA-9 (which was the stock arm on the PS-X9) or PUA-7)) and plinth, or just as a drive (like mine in the pic). I bought mine as NOS drive and have yet to use it... it's so pretty... (actually, the real problem is a lack of plinth for it now). An early model with black strobe dots on silver background. Nice oil-filled turntable mat. I have a second one for parts just in case... :^)
    • Denon DP-80
    Denon's replacement for the DP-6000 and the new top-of-the-consumer line (excepting the DP-100M which was a pro deck which was also stuck into a frame which could accept a wooden shroud, and sold to a few audiophiles for a stupendously high price (equivalent to $30k in today's dollars if thinking about it in average PPP/household income terms)). As a replacement for the DP-6000, it came with a new, stronger 3-phase motor, and lowered rumble through a new double-layer platter construction. Apparently, if you open it up, the voltage adjustment/controller portion of the speed controller circuitry is something to behold - highly sophisticated. In any case, above and beyond the speed controller, there is a PLL loop and a magnetic pulse system (similar to the system used by Sony at the time) working in combination with it. Denon's claim was that a 250g stylus at the outer edge would not cause the platter to change speed (the P3's claim was that a 1.5kg stylus wouldn't budge it). All in all, a nice table, which deserves a better plinth than I have given it so far.
    • Pioneer PL-7L
    The Japanese version of the PL-90 Elite made from the mid-1980s onward. The PL-7L came out five years after the PL-70LII, which was the trickle-down TT in terms of receiving technology (arm and Stable Hanging Rotor system) from the mighty Exclusive P3 and later P3a. The PL-7L has the same specs as the PL-70LII - very high S/N ratio (85dB) and one of the lowest wow/flutter levels seen on a TT - this time with an interesting built-in isolation damping footer system, and no money spent on veneer. Quite decent torque. A real steal for the money these days in my opinion.
    • Rek-O-Kut Rondine Deluxe B-12H - PROJECT
    old idler wheel drive - to become a project... couldn't resist the looks. The trick now will be to see if I can get the whole thing done with time, elbow grease, and 100 bucks.
    • Denon 103R
    On the PX-1. Old faithful?
    • Microseiki LC-80w
    Very low output MC cart - Micro's top of the line cart in the late 1970s. Very very strange magnet design.
    • Fidelity Research FR-7
    Very heavy, very low compliance LOMC classic from Ikeda-san, to go with his heavy stainless steel arms. Sounds like Jadis on a stick.
    • Fidelity Research FR-7f
    An update to the FR-7 which came out two years after the FR-7 (in 1980) for 40% more money. Like the Fr-7, this also weighed 30g and had an integrated headshell. Output was 0.15mV. Stylus is said to have a square cut of 0.15mm (as opposed to the 0.2mm x 0.3mm semi-elliptical of the original FR-7).
    • Technics 100CMk3
    MM Cart. One of Technics' best. A real giant killer.
    • Technics 100CMk4
    MM cart
    • Grace F9 Ruby
    MM Cart with ruby stylus. Excellent performer for the amount one pays used.
    • Garrott P77
    Wonderful MM cart from the Australian brothers. Very high performance - this cart is one of the ones which 'surprises' me as an MM cart. It has a lot of the characteristics which were used to describe the reasons why MCs are inherently better than MMs.
    • Sony XL55mono
    LOMC (0.2mV) mono version of the XL55 cart introduced to go with the Sony PS-X9 table. Also used the innovative 'Figure-8' coil of the XL-55 family. Very nice-sounding mono cart. A huge step up from the DL102.
    • Sony XL55Pro
    This was theoretically no different than the XL55 regular version though Sony (or their Soundtec division which designed/made the carts) made the Pro specifically to adorn the Sony PS-X9. The XL55Pro has an integrated headshell (like the XL55mono) vs the XL55 which came without headshell. With the headshell, it is quite a heavy cart - I'd estimate 25-28g. The XL55Pro was reportedly a handpicked version of the XL55 (similar to the Denon 103Pro in concept).

Comments 108

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Hello t_bone
i am using a custom solid state analogic cross over at the moment built by a French technicen that does Jean Philippe Martin ones for years. 

I am thinking to go for a KANEDA inspiration schematic base from Japan, the Japanese are the most experienced for those big system. if you have any contact that would be able to built these piece of art, i'll be interested to consider this up date for my system.
 
P.S: Jean Philippe Martin is the conceptor of the EURYTHMIE speakers among others audio realisations

marie_70

Hi
Just got a TTS 8000 and cannot wait to have it up and running - just need a plinth.

Out of interest - what size arm will fit/work with the tts 8000 - I have a moerch dp6 - I am thinking of using that - may get a precision version at a later stage.

BTW - love the decks, whiskey, and baskets

Please let me know

lohanimal

Owner
Hi all. Am in HK without stereo for the past year. Hoping to get my system in place within the next 12wks. Counting down!

Voraratc, either one will be fine. The P3 or P3a will be less expensive, but you have no alternative arm choices. But it is a very good arm. It is difficult to beat the P3 for price if you buy it from hifido or similar. You can do more with the SP10Mk3, and you can certainly go as custom as you want.

Mgmmgm, this may sound like a cliche, but my experience of the 8000 is that it sounds super-smooth and delicate - probably more so than the P3 - but the P3 seems to do 'drive' better.

t_bone

Hi T-Bone, just checking in and always enjoy reading about your system. Hope all's well in Japan.

Scott

skushino

wor..wonder...how;s the 8000 VS the P3?

mgmmgm

t bone

i am looking at getting exclusive P3a or sp10mkIII can you recommend which one is the better one to choose..thx

voraratc

Owner
Thanks Rugy. Fine here. Hope your son stays safe.

t_bone

Hi T bone
Hoping that all is well in your neck of the woods.
Watching the devastation on the net and on TV is very surreal.
Wishing you and all the people in Japan the very best.

My oldest son is on a stay for 6 months in Japan, 3 hours north of Tokyo.
All is well where he us staying.

Take care,
Mike

rugyboogie

T_bone - I have seen a Denon DN-308F in Vienna before Christmas. Wow this guy has lots of impressive electronics. It is one of two pieces being imported by a Frenchman to Europe. How are its sonics compared with the Micro 8000?

thuchan

Owner
Ddriveman,
Thanks. The P3, DP-100, SP-10Mk3, and PS-X9 are all great. Other people have done the SP-10Mk2 better than I have done mine. The SP-10Mk3 stock is better than the Mk2. I think that both done well can be world-beaters. I have not gotten my L-07D up to the level of the other three yet but will be working on that shortly. The DP-80 needs a bigger base to get to its best and I have not given my DP-80 a large enough plinth yet. I am convinced that with a very large/heavy plinth, and some effort to tame the resonance left in the flying saucer at the top, the DP-80 (and similar tables like the TTS-8000, and especially the high-end Victors) can be very, very good. That said, the P3, SP-10Mk3, PS-X9, and DP-100 all have very heavy platters and high torque to move the platter. That platter mass/inertia gets a result which sounds a fair bit closer to the Micro than the lower-end DDs. FWIW, the Exclusives can be obtained.
As to which I like best... that is still a question. I will be trying to tweak the DP-100, P3, SP-10Mk3, and PS-X9 to get them better. On a stock basis, I would say it is possible the PS-X9 has a higher noise-floor than the other three. In terms of ergonomics, the PS-X9 is my favorite table out of all of them - decent and versatile arm, auto-return, very nice arm-drop, very easy to use controls, and in its most basic form, it has the headamp and phono stage built in, so if one can get those to the level one wants, the all-in-one package is tough to beat. Recently, the DP-100, P3, and PS-X9 are in rotation.

Mjmct,
That list doesn't actually have all of them (e.g. my Technics and Victor tables are not listed) and some of them I have doubles of (ouch!). On my racks I can put four tables across and one on another rack at the end on the L if I don't have more than 2 super-wide tables on at a time (the SX-8000, RX-5000, and DP-100s are all "wide"). The DN-308 is behind one end of the rack, and a few others are on top of other shelves again awaiting their turn.
I don't actually think of myself as a collector. I was just curious, and it just kind of happened. The real answer is that I have not sold enough of them off yet. I have gotten rid of several TTs but all of the above-noted are still there... For now...

t_bone

You have the nicest collection of top of the line vintage TT I've seen. Your descriptions are very informative too. Do you still own them all, as a collector, and do you have them displayed on some kind of shelf system? I'd love to see a photo of your TT room. Beautiful system in every way, and something to aspire for.

mjcmt

Hi T-Bone,

Wonderful system. I love the sound of horns and high efficiency speakers. BUt your collection of DD turntables is really the most extensive I have seen, I have a Denon DP6000/FR64s arm whihc is what got me back into vinyl again. How would you rate the P3 versus SP10 versus DP80 versus L-07D. I can't find an Exlcusive P3 but can get my hands on the other 3. Also, do you find the Denon DP100 and PS-X9 compared to the others?

ddriveman

Owner
It will take me a bit of digging to find the driver complement but I'll get there. As I remember, it is not terribly impressive and I remember thinking one could do better. Don't think the tweeter is Fostex but I'll have to check.

t_bone

I would use bending ply with fiberglass for the large horn. Paint or full veneer it. Weight isn't a issue for me. Wondering what drivers are used? Tweeter looks fostex? Familiar with the magico design. Thank you for your time and help.

johnk

Owner
Johnk,
Basically, the big Magicos are a "something-like-a-clone" of the Eurythmies except the bass is handled differently. The bass on the Eurythmies is not efficient like the rest of the speaker but it sounds wonderful.
I really really like the big horn on top. Not sure how to clone that part of the horn. For vacuum mold you'd need a big setup. If you did it in bent plywood, it would be super heavy. I think it could be done in fibreglass (or ABS) but you'd have to build a nice mold.

t_bone

Maybe I will build a clone of the Jadis Eurythmie MK2. Doesn't look so bad to do. JK-K.C.S. http://www.kcsloudspeakers.com/

johnk

Owner
Hiendtoend,
Thanks for the advice. Tough for me to find AudioNote here (at least affordably so) and am looking into other amplification solutions.

Vernneal,
I am not sure of the meaning of your question.

t_bone

How well does your system reproduce the horns?

vernneal

I think Audio Note Kondo would work better than Jadis pow amp and preamp with your system and speakers.

Hiendtoend

hiendtoend

Owner
Temple,
Thank you for your comments. Yes I live in Japan. I actually met Stig for the first time a few months ago. I too need to find a Nakamichi tech. I have a Dragon CT which needs a little TLC. There is a guy in Japan with a website called amp8.com. He has repaired a bunch of otherwise un-repairable TTs with a list here. He appears to be somewhat creative with his solutions. There is another shop out in the outskirts of Tokyo which may be worth a call and I will try to ring both of them this week. This is worth finding out more about. If it requires an IC, one needs either to rig an alternate, or one is out of luck. There are not that many TX-1000s out there that one can strip for parts.

I like my Eurythmies. They do quite well. Other multi-way horn speakers/implementations (Oris, Orish customs, Avantgarde, some custom JBL setups I have seen) can do similar. As for pricing ideas, you'll get a mail later tonight. Those pretty Magicos look like they would do a fair job in any case. :^) Did you like them?

The biggest difference between those and the others mentioned above will be the DSP aspect to time-align and cross-over the drivers. I do not know about the DSP issues involved in the Magico implementation but if implemented well, I expect the description "world-class" would suddenly encompass a smaller group of speakers than most people think it does.

The "cheap" way to replicate this would be:
1) do it 4-way (mid-bass horn, treble horn, supertweeter, dynamic woofer), not 5-way
2) buy ALE or Goto compression drivers used; the far lower budget method would be to do this with BMS compression drivers and Fostex supertweeters
3) get someone to put together the DSP for you: perhaps 4 Behringer DEQ 2496 modules front-ended with top-quality ADCs, and stripped to output their digital signal to 4 Buffalo (see TwistedPairAudio) DAC modules with tube regulated output stages. One would either mod the Behringers as is, or one would get a cheap interface built through something like rentacoder.com, or by someone who was willing to put in beer equity because it was a fun project. Either that or avoid all the fuss and time align them physically, using an active tube crossover and 2A3 amps for everything but the woofers.
4) get someone to build the horns for you. This could be done in a couple of ways:
a) with thin, CNC-cut, birchply slices glued together like the guy out there (think he lists on Audiogon) who does a flatpack of the Sachiko horn. One would pay a cabinetmaker to finish the horns and veneer them. I would flatpack them so the throat goes through the stack, then either use filler in the zigzag created, or file them down.
b) get a guy who does lathe wood working to do something similar. Make sure he has a monster lathe and the skills to create the right flare.
c) with Orishorns or Azurahorns or similar for the mid-bass to somewhere just north of 150Hz, and then tractrix flare treble horns and then the ALE supertweeter drivers have the horn built onto the front. This would have to be built onto a "frame" to hold the disparate parts, much like Orishorn or Avantgarde speakers, and at least one multi-horn implementation which I believe was done by kcsloudpseakers.

5) The woofers could be done a variety of ways - isobarik like the Eurythmies, in a cab like the Onken-style cabs used on many Orishorn implementations, or straight like done here.

It is pretty obvious that the designer of the Magico Ultimate had seen a picture of Eurythmies before he came up with his design. It looks like a fabulous implementation. That said, $25k is a lot less than $430k, and using the DIY methods above, one could probably improve on the Eurythmie for even less.

t_bone

Dear T-Bone, I gather that you live or have lived in Japan, based on your varied components and furniture. I lived in Tokyo for five years in the Nineties and, with a friend who owns Lyra there, Stig Biorge, bought a Nakamichi TX1000 turntable which I still have.
The problem is the corrector arm. It will not rise from its little compartment and do its job. I have talked to Robert Greene of The Absolute Sound, who also owns a TX1000, and he has the same problem.
If you know of any past Nakamichi technician, in any country, who could fix
this situation, I would be eternally grateful. My email is: [email protected].
Incidentally, I was recently offered one of the fifty pairs of Jadis Eurythmies for US$25,000 but thought it was too much. What are your thoughts on pricing them? They do seem to be a precursor to Magico's Ultimate $430,000 horn speakers that I heard recently in Hong Kong where I live.
I have been a contributing audiophile since 1958 and do admire your choices.

temple

Hi T-Bone,
I modified my blue MS 8000 by exchanging the RY-5500 to VPI double motor flywheel + VPI SDS. What a difference in precison and stableness. Maybe you should give it a try. You will never use the RY-5500 again, nevertheless it looks fantastic.

I also tested the EA-10 for a longer period now. Playing the arm with a UNIverse I think it is a brilliant arm - completely underrated (need to exchange the copper wiring!!!).

best
Thuchan

thuchan

Hello,

Thank you for the informative posts...I've learned so much from perusing your descriptions of turntables from a wonderful era of audio!

Very best,

Sam

c1ferrari

Owner
Thuchan,
Glad to hear about your experience with the SAEC WE8000. I rarely see them around and have always wanted to try one. I know almost nothing about them. They are reasonably rare.

As for the EA-10, I don't have mounting distance but a quick measurement indicates 272.5 looks right. The data I have indicate 282mm effective length and overhang of 12.5mm which would make it almost exactly like the Max282 (which is supposed to be 282/12). I don't know what the offset angle is supposed to be on the EA-10 but the Max282 is 17.5°. My copy of the P3 manual does not give an offset angle but says that max tracking error points are +1.85° and -1.10° which can be solved for to get you offset angle if need be.

I'd be very interested in your opinion of the EA-10 arm (I have one I can use - fortunately or unfortunately it's mounted to a P10, but it could be unmounted if necessary and used elsewhere). The P3 and P10 can also use the AC4400 and AC4000 with equal aplomb, and I've been told the Max 282 can be mounted on it (is that also 272.5mm mounting distance?).

t_bone

T-Bone, I mounted the SAEC 8000 on my Nakamichi 1000 and as I promised to you here is the result: I start with a small point. The lift is the best lift I have ever seen and worked with. It stops at every level you want. This means it is not oil damped. Do you know more about this?
I have rewired the arm by Ikeda silver wiring.
I mounted the Titan I on the 8000.

Let me tell you - I am really surprised. This 13" design is superior to everything I have studied and tested so far. The arm produces such a wonderful sound. The bearings with the two knifes must be so good! What a wonderful tonearm this is, even better than the FR-66s which is to be King tonearm...

BTW Do you know the mounting distance of the EA-10, I assume it is 272,5. Am I right? I am working on this arm, everything is rewired but I do need a different base for my Micro to get the right distance...

thuchan

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