I renamed the system. From Twin Platters rim drive it is now a Classics tournament: I will compare fairly 4 classic TT : Thorens TD 124 MKII, Garrard 301 and 401, Lenco L75 PTP3 on same slate plinth with same(TD124) slate armboard and same Phantom tonearm in same system. The TD124 is finished, now the Lenco is following...
Classic original bough cheap to upgrade with 26 Kg slate plinth/ PTP 3 topplate/ 15 Kg platter (VPI Superplatter) on top of Lenco L70 platter) Still not finished, a slate top plinth / tonearmboard has to be done, with motor controller to eliminate all the switches.Stainless steel platform between the two slate layers.
Thorens TD-124 mk II / Slate
Heritage from my father. Slate plinth designed by me and made by Oscar Daffe in Belgium. Major upgrade . Slate tonearmboard. Various Schopper upgrade kits . Symposium couplers.
VPI Industries TNT III modified turntable
I used the old platter as a RIM direct driving the new superplatter via rubber belt around it .The whole TT plinth is sitting on 3 Symposium Rollerblocks Jr. on Ultra platform. You can see on pics that the plinth feets are just for visual matter. Rubber belt replaced by Loricraft thread line between motor and rim drive platter. The rollerblocks tungsten balls are a smooth horizontal pressure to rim platter acting as a controlled buffer for vibrations and increasing speed accuracy, and on vertical plane acting as direct coupling TT plinth to the Ultra platform draining energy to it. The accuracy of this TT is much improved.
Symposium Ultra Platform
Specialy made for VPI TNT with RollerblocksII direct coupled to TT platform bypassing the footers. The whole TT is resting only on 3 tungsten balls.
Symposium Rollerblocks II tungsten
Direct coupling TNT III plinth to Ultra platform on vertical plane and applying a controled pressure between the 2 platters on horizontal plane.
VPI Industries SDS speed controler
Synchroneus drive to 300 RPM SAMA reverse wired
Allaerts MC-2 Finish Gold cartridge
Stereo cartridge
Allaerts MC-1 mkII
O.6 mV MC very musical.
Graham Engineering Phantom B 44 tonearm
With two armwands
Lyra Helikon Mono cartridge
Mono cartridge
Purist Audio Venustas Tonearm cable
Tonarm cable DIN to RCA
TRON Tron Seven tube phonopreamp
Optimised by Graham Tricker for Allaerts Finish cartridge. Very high gain (>75dB)
SME 3009 mk II tonearm
on Thorens TD 124 mk 2
Nagaoka MP 50 MM cartridge
MM High resolution cartridge. As good as the Allaerts ! OK with GSP Revelation phonopre.
Garrard 301 Hammergray grease
Very early 1954 very good condition
SME 3012 MKII tonearm
With Garrard 301 Hammergray
Garrard 301 oil bearing
strobe platter
Garrard 401 turntable
early model, very good,very quiet and stable
Perpetuum Ebner P 33 Studio turntable
This is my favourite jewel, 1963 idler/belt like the TD 124 but mutch smaller. I will keep it as it is, with the absolutely gorgeous tonearm.
Graham Slee Elevator + Revelation
Phonopreamp direct connected to MC 275 via Purist Proteus Provectus IC using MC 275 volume controls (bypass a preamp). Has 15 different recording curves and mono switch for vintage albums.
Purist Audio Proteus Provectus RCA interconnect
SE interconnect phonopre to MC 275 amp
McIntosh MC-275 reissue modified
With NOS Telefunken/ Mullard military small tubes NOS ECG Philips 6550 tubes
Quad ESL-57
Pair of mythic Quads refurbished by One Thing Audio in U.K. / Sound is gorgeous, clean and accurate, paired with ARC VT 100 amp.
Martin Logan Ascent i
Hibrid electrostatic
Mordaunt Short Subwoofer
MS 309 Sub very fast and matches well ML Electrostatic panels
Loricraft PCR 4 Modified
Record cleaning Machine. I put damping tissues inside to lower succion motor noise.
No, I am so impressed by the Quad ESL 57 paired with ARC VT 100 or MC 275 amps that any other ultra expensive speaker system seems a waist of money for me, I paid £ 400 for a pair ! I am not joking, they still are in the same league as Magico's ans Avalon's even 50 years later . Peter Walker was a real genious. If you have an oportunity to try them in yous nice MC 275 based system you will be amazed, specialy with jazz. They deserve the title of " best hifi component of all times" from HiFi news. Stacked pairs is not necessary, a single pair is enough and maybe a third central one for mono . They do not lack of bass contrary to common belief, they are full range speakers very coherent , not like the Logans. I play them with Logans for more dynamics and imaging (with a sub) but also not necessary . I am hoocked !
Dear Pedrillo: I posted 2 photos of very bad quality ( i-phone) in the wait of taking better ones. The ESL 57 are sounding very good by themselves, the "Wall of Sound" is just giving better imaging and coherence to the sound picture. As you see the speaker positioning is far from optimal, but the sound is already awesome like this. A third ESL 57 will fit in the center for mono . A real wall that will be ! The Garrard plinth project is on the way with massive slate and light aluminium in slate decoupled by squash balls. The TD 124 is better without decoupling. Thanks for your interest. Jean.
System edited: I always wanted to test the famous Quad ESL 57 in my system. I found a very nice pair in U.K. and has been refurbished by One Thing Audio , they are as new, I am knocked out by the quality of the sound from those 50 years old electrostatics, I created a " WALL OF SOUND" with the Logans far exterior run with MC 275 amp and ESL 57 in the middle run by ARC VT 100, this gives a synergy speaker system accurate, holographic and addictive.
System edited: I received the slate plinth and armboard for the TD 124, absolutely gorgeous ! I will upload photos, this is Belgian " shiste ardoisier" hard slate with copper inserts, manifactured with robot computerised machines. Very cost effective and precise work. Highly recommended.
System edited: I bought 4 Garrards in England, a nice journey full of adventures, this turntable hunting is fantastic, I met so interesting people , now I have to refurbish all those turntables, I left two at Loricraft to share the job, and plinth making is on the way with the slate quary maker.
System edited: I have been bitten by the vintage idler wheel turntables bug. "Da thread" initiated by Jean Nantais fascinated me to the point that I found for a ridiculous price 3 Lenco's : 75, 78 and 78 SE all mint condition. Also a very cute Perpetuum Ebner 1963 german belt/idler similar to the TD 124 for the drive concept, just much smaller, with heavy platter and strobe, 4 speeds. Now what ? A nice Garrard 301 and I am done. The main concept will be a double slate plinth for all those babies and one arm that fits all of them ( 47 Labs RS A1 ? ), so I will compare all of them and keep the best. What a journey !!!
It was meant as a compliment to be sure. It now looks and sounds to me like this is a mechanical engineer's labor of love. It looks fantastic, I hope it turns out well for you.
Oh thanks for the translation Dgob, so thank you Macdadtexas for your "kind" words ! Still I am not happy enough with the actual plinth and the stonecutter is working on the new slate design.
Macdadtexas: I am not very good with my english, but if bad-ass means awful,I do think you are right. I am working on a new design for a slate/ aluminium sandwich plinth that will make the whole TT look better and sound even better.
System edited: I received my father's heritage: a beautiful Thorens TD 124 MK II with SME 3009 II and Shure cart. I listened to my first records on it when I was a kid ! I am 52 now and I don't believe how good this TT is. Sounds very similar to my modded idler VPI TNT. I will put it in slate plinth, than it will beat my monster ! Joy !
If you're certain! Please don't be overly careful and feel free to engage in open discussion about anything. If I have an "opinion", I will gladly share it.
My experience leads me to greater awareness only that somethings that seem better might just be different and that our differing audio perspectives lead to many interesting roads I enjoy the ride and try to keep open and learning (fidelity - high or not so - is another issue);~)
Dear Dgog, I must be very careful with you because Raul refered me to you and you have a much bigger experience than me on analog domain. I did try couplers without rollerblocks and it did not work well with my setup because this is a rim drive system and needs buffer between platters. Peter of Symposium told me that it realy is the best way to achieve speed stability. I tryed EAR phono and it is a very good phonopre, Tron IS superior, especialy with NOS mullard tubes.I thank you to have interest in my project, 5000 views and few answers ! : )
I like your general thinking and approach. Your system reminds me strongly of a former system that I used to use. Just curious, but have you tried removing the Symposium roller block sections and just stacking the Symposium precision couplers under your deck? I think that this could work wonders for the imaging and PRaT that you achieve.
Also, if you ever get the chance to listen to the SP25 MK2 with an EAR 324 phono stage it might impress a lot. There are slight issues with the gain levels here (meaning you cannot turn the sound down completely!) but I think this combination could add a lot at a very reasonable price.
OK Jean!!I love your taste and set-up!If it is convincing,that is all that counts!!
I am currently trying to convince a friend to upgrade from the Venustas to the Proteus Provectas.He has the Phantom/Transfiguration Orpheus and Magico Minis.
I have enough confidence in what I've read,to feel the Proteus arm cable is wonderful.
Hi Jean (from another Jean), seeing a big VPI turned into an idler-wheel project warms the cockles of my heart. Absolutely stunning, beautiful work, and good thinking outside the box too! And of course I really like the direct coupling ;-)!! Glad to hear you heard the improvement. Now even Harry is getting into the Idler Game, so kudos to him too for trying, hearing and accepting!! It would be nice if you could eliminate belts altogether from that project, as what you have now is a sort of Super Thorens TD-124, already better than a pure belt-drive as you have discovered, but in comparison with true idlers (Garrards, Lencos) having lesser dynamics, transient speed and bass (the Thorens however would be improved by substituting mylar tape for that rubber belt), but it is already sounding very complicated to add in yet another platter to add to the drive system to accomplish this. But it is very interesting to see the sonic development of the idler-wheel principle in steps as you go along: the increased torque as you add rotational mass and apply the idler principle, the increased clarity and focus as you eliminate the suspension, the increased speed stability as you eliminate the compliant belts, and so on. It all bears out the idler wheel principle as it was developed decades past, and the seriousness of stylus force drag, which is what it is all about :-)!! Fabulous and constructive experiment.
So the other issue with idler-wheel drives is simple torque: there exists nothing in belt-drive motors today to equal those massive powerful idler-wheel motors of yore (which spun at 1500-1800 RPM), but, in keeping with the spirit of the experiment, you could tear a page out of the British Voyd book, creators of the multiple-motor approach now being adopted by certain high-end manufacturers: add more motors to increase torque. I don't know how this would factor in cost-wise. Voyd's 'tables went up the ladder as they added motors, their top having three motors to create their signature powerful sound at the time. You could try adding a second VPI motor, thread-drive makes this workable, as they come already handy in separate pods, and see what happens. I look forward to your continuing experiments and experiences with idler-wheel drive principles - torque, proper use of inertia, proper coupling, grip - keep it up!! Maybe some day you'll actually try a properly-rebuilt Lenco or Garrard as Reference and let us know your findings ;-). Your experiment is a very constructive exercise which increases our understanding of drive systems in vinyl replay. And keep your ears open for such intangibles as magic, musical excitement, PRaT, gestalt, harmony, which, since they are heard by audiophools the world over, aren't so intangible after all :-)!!
I am so happy , Harry(VPI), Peter(Symposium), Jan(Allaerts) and many of you sended me rave comments after seeing my humble project.This stimulates me to go on furter.Thank you all for your enthousiam!
The importance of the Rollerblocks in this application is crucial, they act as horizontal plane buffers that keeps the contact between the two platters smooth and steady, absorbs any vibration transmitted to the main platter. On vertical plane firm contact coupling TT plinth to Ultra Platform.
Finaly I use the Tron Seven phonopreamp. Indeed I had bad luck with the Allaerts Finish cartridge I bought (new !) on Audiogon and it is still on repair so I decided to use the Tron even with it's very high gain with my Allaerts MC1 MKII and even with wrong load it is a KILLER phonopreamp, surpasses by far the Manley Steelhead I had on my system for demo. And it is not burned in, just out of the box, dynamic, detailled, so musical I am totaly amazed. I keep you updated when the Finish comes back...
Full size picture of updated rim drive coupled to Symposium Ultra and thread drive. I still have to low down the first platter to use the peripheric ring.
